Am I Ready For Dart Frogs Yet ??

[RichFrye]

Things to consider before acquiring dart frogs.
I understand impulses. Darts are very cool frogs. But,
Before you get your darts ask yourself a few questions.

Do I fully understand;

What it takes to feed these frogs?
Quarantine?
Mixing is best left to those who have much dart experience, as best?
A bigger viv is better and it is far from a rule that 5 gallons per frog is sufficient?
How to make the viv , including plants that are best per species?
Collecting of fecals and testing of frogs?
Temp and humidity ranges?
What frogs are best for beginners?
Medical professionals , not asking for help strictly from the internet, if things turn bad ?
How much light my plants, not my frogs, need?
Water to use?
Substrate?
What a wild caught is vs. a captive bred dart?
Misting?
Not touching darts?

If you answer no to any of the above questions you need to consider holding off getting darts until you at least have a basic grasp of each and every one of those questions. Because they are all beginner topics. Some of which can get get advance and involved with varying opinions. But if you have no opinion on one of the questions above , please hold off and start utilizing the SEARCH function. It does work well.
I write this because it sickens me to see the amount of frogs deaths (read of here daily) due to the fact that new comers are not ready for frogs.

[mushmush]

nicely done.
Ultra frog noobs may do well to consider more "user friendly" frogs like white's tree frogs or pac man frogs. You can still build them nice vivs, although the pacman probably won't care, and are far less delicate

[J_Brat]

This is a great topic, thanks for posting. I will admit I am new to the husbandry of PDFs. I respect them and did significant research before my first purchase. It is the excellent communications on boards such as this that can help us be better keepers. If I may suggest another consideration is the ongoing costs of proper husbandry, supplements and equipment.

Jeanie

[Kerney_W]

My advice: If you want some frogs and have space available, go for it! Obviously, do everything you can to take the best care of them, but at some point you haver to realize that you will eventually have to pull the trigger. If you are only planning on getting a single tank of frogs and you are getting them all from the same breeder, quarantine and fecals are probably not necessary. If your frogs start to have problems, you can always send out for fecals later, and if needed, remake the viv.

I think by far the two most important things are making sure that your tank will not overheat and making sure that you will have a constant source of fruit flies.

Provided you can seal off the viv if necessary(which depends on the style), misting isn't that much of a concern. The viv will need misted every couple of days, about the same as a houseplant. A 10 gallon tank should be plenty for smaller frogs. They may enjoy more space, but at some point you have to realize that a bigger viv comes with diminishing returns. Where do you draw the line?

Ultimately they are your frogs. You own them. You can do whatever you like with them. But investing some time into research and planning will pay off in the long run.

[RichFrye]

My advice: If you want some frogs and have space available, go for it! Obviously, do everything you can to take the best care of them, but at some point you haver to realize that you will eventually have to pull the trigger. If you are only planning on getting a single tank of frogs and you are getting them all from the same breeder, quarantine and fecals are probably not necessary. If your frogs start to have problems, you can always send out for fecals later, and if needed, remake the viv.

A few problems with this.
Everybody thinks they have enough space, and everybody who gets these frogs wants them. That does not make them ready for them.
Quarantine is ALWAYS best. Always. There is no downside to knowing if your frogs are healthy. There is no upside to waiting until your frogs show signs of disease.
Why would fecals not be necessary. How do we know those frogs are healthy? Wait and see?

I think by far the two most important things are making sure that your tank will not overheat and making sure that you will have a constant source of fruit flies.

Those are two very important things to know about. But only two of many.

Provided you can seal off the viv if necessary(which depends on the style), misting isn't that much of a concern. The viv will need misted every couple of days, about the same as a houseplant. A 10 gallon tank should be plenty for smaller frogs. They may enjoy more space, but at some point you have to realize that a bigger viv comes with diminishing returns. Where do you draw the line?

Making definitive statements about how often to mist really needs to be contained to more specific situations. Some situations need misting quite often other almost never.
Almost any dart can live in a ten gallon. Almost every dart does much better in a 20, 30, 40 , 100 gal. The benefits are huge in a huge tank. I can site examples...But actually, already have.

Ultimately they are your frogs. You own them. You can do whatever you like with them. But investing some time into research and planning will pay off in the long run.

You don't really own them , you care for them. I really get upset when people say "they're my frogs, I'll do what I want with them..."
But yes, please, invest time researching was is best for them. And if you can't answer all of my topics I posted in that first one, don't get frogs yet. They will still be around after you are ready.

Rich

[weaf27]

A few things that I learned very quickly as I am just under 1 year as a Dart Frog Keeper but these three items worked great for me.

Temps? A great way is to put 1 or more thermometers in the different places in your home that you are considering putting your new pets. For about $15 +/- you can pick one up at Target or HomeDepot that records the high and low for the area in question. This really helped me decide where to place them.

Fruit Flies? Culturing is the cheapest way but I would not recommend it until you have dealt with a few cultures over a period of about 6 months that way you get a better understanding and avoid the nasty crash where you suddenly have no flies. Always try to order 1 Fresh Culture and 1 Pre-incubated that way you have a constant supply and when your last culture is just starting to produce nicely you can re-order. Recommended sources for Great Cultures - www.FlyCafe.net (fat healthy looking flies!) or Ed's Flymeat (expensive but reliable).

As for mold that was a problem I dealt with early on - 2 solutions. First increase air circulation and number two was to buy springtails which people promote as food but I have found that they are better at house keeping by eating the mold.

Good Luck.

[Kerney_W]

The problem with a laundry list of prerequisites is that it may overwhelm and deter an otherwise capable hobbyist. These frogs are not all that difficult to take care of. You can always come up with reasons not to do something, but at some time you must quit wavering and bit the bullet.

You don't really own them , you care for them. I really get upset when people say "they're my frogs, I'll do what I want with them..."

This is ultimately a philosophical difference, similar to a religious belief, which will not be resolved after any amount of internet arguing. At some point, we will have to agree to a difference of opinion. In MY opinion: I own my frogs, just as I own a bag of frozen chicken. I can do what I want with them, so long as I don't break any animal abuse laws. I can experiment on them however I please. I can sell them to a less scrupulous beginner and pocket the change. That is my opinion, and I realize you do not agree with it, but just because you get upset doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine.

[RichFrye]

One man's laundry list is another man's must do...If you are overwhelmed by any of those simple questions I posted, you are not ready to "pull the trigger".

Care to please introduce yourself so I know who I am "talking to" ,can judge (yup, I said judge) exactly how valid your opinions are, and then refuse to sell you any bags of chicken.

This is just the kind of attitude that ruins the hobby. Just because something is not illegal does not mean it is ethical (insert punk teen on Springer snapping fingers, bobbing head and spouting "they my frogs, I'll do what I want! Or was that Cartman...) Everyone's opinion is not equal or valid. It is not quantity that this hobby needs, it is quality, and everyone is NOT READY.
But, I'll wait a bit further to see who you are, and what exact experience you have , then wait for the post on how you plan to make the hobby a better place in ways other than 'come on in, the water fine'.

Rich

[mushmush]

there is no such thing as the frog police.

BUT if you ignore good advice given, don't expect to get anymore help from people. People with years of experience have the years of experience for a reason... they are successful at keeping these animals. Better to stand on the shoulders of giants and use their experience to your benefit. Broad generalizations hurt this and any hobby.

If you kill houseplants, try getting better at plant care before you jump into viv care. Ask yourself, how good is my water? will I be using spring water? rain water? Knowing where in your house ambient temps are best is a great thing. Depending on the room I'm in, my ambient temps differ by up to 10 degrees per room in the summer. That 10 degrees can mean the difference between life and death to your frogs.

Never had a pet before? sorry to say that darts probably aren't the best beginner pet for you.

You may have bought your frogs, but they are still living entities that deserve the best care and husbandry practices you can give. Its your responsibility as a decent human being to provide the best for them, which usually means a tank bigger than a 10 gallon.

You could live your whole life in a studio apartment, but wouldn't you feel more comfortable in a nice house instead?

[Kerney_W]

I'm not trying to prove anything here, just trying to give another viewpoint. I don't think that it is necessarily valid to extrapolate a human experience to a frog. A human won't like living its whole life in a one bedroom apartment, but that's because it knows there is more than the apartment. I'm not sure a frog knows anything.

But getting back on point here... my comments above were made in the context of an easy to care for, expendable frog. Such as a leuc, an overbred tinc or a vent. Yes, I said expendable. Those frogs are over produced, and provide a good jumping off point for a beginner. If the frog doesn't make it, the person still learned a lot about caring for a frog. Let me be clear here. I am not advocating the purchase of frogs with the intent to kill them (although this doesn't seem terribly worse than buying a chicken with the intent to eat it). But a little common sense and a capacity to quickly learn go a long way. You can research, and research, and research until your brain explodes, but you will learn more in the first week of having your frog than you could learn by reading an entire book.

[RichFrye]

... my comments above were made in the context of an easy to care for, expendable frog. Such as a leuc, an overbred tinc or a vent. Yes, I said expendable.

Kerney, can you please send me some cheap, overproduced highland tricolors? How about some $15 histos? Point being, a once cheap, overproduced/imported frog can in a few years time become a very hard to find, not so expendable frog.

If the frog doesn't make it, the person still learned a lot about caring for a frog.

What exactly did they learn? How to kill an expendable [sic] frog?

Let me be clear here. I am not advocating the purchase of frogs with the intent to kill them (although this doesn't seem terribly worse than buying a chicken with the intent to eat it).

Do you get nourishment from your dead darts? I eat chickens...

... you will learn more in the first week of having your frog than you could learn by reading an entire book.

I suggest you buy a new book , and/or start reading and digesting a bit more.

It is clear that not everyone feels the same way about their frogs. But I read every day about how sad and upset a person is when their frogs die, because they simply did not do enough research . The fact that they lost $100 on a couple leucs VS. $500 on a couple pumilio does not seem to matter to them. SO, I post a few tips on what to do before one gets into the hobby. They happen to not include 'time in grade' by killing.
If you have expendable money for expendable frogs, and have no qualms about killing frogs like the chicken we feed on, by all means, pull the trigger [sic].

Rich

[mushmush]

I don't consider living things expendable.

Im grateful for the chicken I eat, so I don't waste it, like people waste frogs by bieng unprepared for their (in reality) simple requirements

I love my frogs, so I take the best care I can of them

In light of HR669 no exotic animal in the pet trade should be considered expendable.

You can learn a lot from your 1st week of frog care, but if you don't do enough research, like a lot of folks, they don't last a week. Then what?

[ChrisK]

It is still f-ing amazing how just because a certain frog costs less money than another, or just because they "own them" that certain people will think it's acceptable to force that animal into a probably extremely uncomfortable demise because of their negligence

[mushmush]

preach on ChrisK

[RichFrye]

Hey everyone My name is Chris.

Ive been in Cork a good few years but, for numerous reasons, never really got to know anyone on the "scene". Time to change that, I think Is there a meetup soon or something like that?

[boombotty]

That's hilarious, I was thinking the same thing.
Scott

[kdsjyc]

kiss my ass my girlfriend said i cant have a poison dart frog.... She can kiss my ass... where can i get information about them... :?:

[Michael Lawrence]

There are punishments for people who neglect their dogs, cats, parrots, and even the idiots who neglet there children and until they push the laws protecting reptiles and amphibians the new comer/ beginner in the hobby has nothing to lose except a few bucks and then they simply just put another doomed frog into the dead ones place. For the ones who think its just a starter frog why dont you pull this sh*t with a baby and tell me its ok. If you purchase a living animal you are in charge of its well being and should be liable for its neglect. I have heard legions of parents tell their kids to do the research before they get a dog and that is simple compared to just the housing requirements of these frogs. I wouldn't even tell someone to get a 2 dollar tree frog as a starter unless they had already learned how to care for them. I have stopped selling frogs to most everyone due to the beginner phase in this hobby. Im not worried about the financial loss because for me Id rather just sit and watch my frogs than see my froglets shipped off to their deaths. If you ask me how many babies they have or whats the best sized tank for them im likely to tell you they are sold or just not respond.

[kdsjyc]

first let me get it straight with you.... I do not neglect no reptile, animal,amphibians. or children you. I have a panther chameleon and a bearded dragon as well as 2 green monitors and a green tree python... I do have literature on poison dart frogs I just wanted more information from people who had experience with the dart frogs... I am pretty sure you were a beginner at first with your dart frogs too...

[RichFrye]

first let me get it straight with you.... I do not neglect no reptile, animal,amphibians. or children you. I have a panther chameleon and a bearded dragon as well as 2 green monitors and a green tree python... I do have literature on poison dart frogs I just wanted more information from people who had experience with the dart frogs... I am pretty sure you were a beginner at first with your dart frogs too...

What many of us have found is that nobody wants to do the amount of work involved, in advance, with keeping these frogs. There are hundreds of articles written already on just about every topic a newbie could imagine, and yet most of the newbie threads start out with "tell me what I need to know", when what is needed to be known is already written, just needing to be read. It may not be solely for that one single newbie who demanded the info, but it's all out there.
When I was a beginner, I read books and forums for about a year before I ever worked with my first frog.


Rich