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Bigger Viv is Better Viv
#1
I started a bigger is better post some time ago and think that beside the "Uberviv"/Greatstuff thread we could get into the plusses (many) and minuses (few??) of very large vivs.
I think most Den members have read at least a bit about the Darklands viv, but I have several large (not as large as the Uber,but large) vivs and all seem to be working well with zero negative effects.
I am opening this up to any questions, suggestions, critiques, whatever.
Bigger is better when done right.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#2
I nearly started this yesterday but had no idea what to write :wink:

Larger viv's in theory would work better than small 10/15h gallon vivs because how many frogs live in a tiny little area?

I have a few questions for you Rich

1) have you seen a dramatic differance in Froglet production when housing the same Locale Pumilio one pair in a smaller viv and one pair in a larger viv? (excluding the 14 Darklands in a 7 month period unless you have another group in a smaller viv)

2) Micro climates would be in a larger viv have you taken readings for temp and humidity in differant areas of the Uber viv and or the smaller larger vivs? its nearly impossible to get Microclimates in a 15 gallon tank.

3) Micro Fauna is IMO highly important when it comes to a healthy breeding frog be they Obligate or not, but its very hard to have a self sustaining population of micro fauna in a small tank versus a larger tank have you ever taken a sample of the leaf litter in your Uber viv if so what did you find?


Sorry for the long poorly written questions I was never a writer lol thats why i lve my numbers :wink:
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#3
Also as an after thought.......

a large tank planted to a frogs needs as in tons of bromilia and leaf litter all over the floor looks alot better than a smaller imaculate trimed tank.

I visited a friend over here who tho not a large tank has a tank aprox 20 gallons full of oak leafs and not much else fr His Retic's and it looks amazing to see these frogs hoping around in a setting simular to what they have in the wild.
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#4
Paul,
I only have single breeding groups of my Pums so I can not really compare apples to apples. But I can tell you that both my Darklands and Nancys (supposedly tricky breeders) are out producing my Bastis and Aquas, that are in smaller vivs.....for now.
My hygrometer is for crap so I don't have great humidity readings, but the bonus of having a 600 gal viv is that there will almost always be a spot or three with 100% humidity, and always have spots with lower humidity. You will also have greater temp gradients and swings.
I had been seeding for a long time before I placed the Darklands or the Nancys, springtails, fungus gnats, even flyers. Most of my vivs are done the same way, it is just more essential to introduce larger amounts to a larger viv. I know that most of the Darks I have pulled had been in viv for at least a month or so after finding one that had just morphed out. The fresh one was 1/3-1/4 the size of his tank mate. I have not really taken a sample per se , but I find lots of tiny bugs when I do have to do a bit of "digging".
I used to spend a lot of time "sculpting" vivs, adding tiny details, only to have my viv be overgrown (a look I prefer also) in a month or three. I like a contoured, but natural look with deapth. I like lots of leaflitter and have really cut back on most moss use.
Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#5
I have to add that the bigger the viv, the more I actually see the frogs. Less wall crawling and frogs looking for cracks to have to be able to escape to. More space, more spots to hide, more exploring. Less stress.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Like Reply
#6
Couldnt agree more..... I think the only reason people see Pum's in small vivs being so active is the fact the frogs are in the get me out of here mode versus the lets explore and go for a stroll mode.


Well i think I am gonna set up apples to apples tanks for a chance to really see the differance and maybe the good results will encourage larger less sculpted vivs (dont get me wrong I do enjoy the sculpted look)
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#7
I am the newbie with the 125 gallon. Hi thank you for all the reading. I was wondering if you had a chance to look at the set up I am going for and if so how does it sound? One question for you how long after planting do you start seeding with springtails and others?
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#8
Voodoo,
I took at look at your set up. It sounds like tons of water. Mind if I go into it more on your thread?
As soon as any viv is complete, I seed whatever I can. Can't do it too far in advance.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Like Reply
#9
I would love to here from you and your thoughts. One concern I have had is to much water.
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#10
I think your building more of a display tank rather than a large viv simply to provide more of a natural living enviroment for breeding.

Rich what would you think of a 3 ft cube? heavy heavy planting auto misting and 3 walls covered with tf panels to create a kind of 3 sided box?

Once I get back to the states and settled I plan on making a couple of these cubes with heavy invert seeding for some egg feeders.


I might even set up a couple of pairs of bastimentos one in the large cube and one in a 20H just to see what kind of differances there may be.

As for the other cubes who knows what i can put in them but thats a ways down the road.

a 3 foot cube gives about 200 gallons and I would just need 12 feet of wall for 4 cubes so it would be worth the space if the frogs are happy and producing.
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#11
Paul,
The only thing I do not like about using "panel" backgrounds, especially all the way around the viv, is that it just does not look natural to me. I looked at Euro-site after Euro-viv after Euro-enclosure and the recurring theme always seems to be to cover 3 sides of a box and plant as many air plants as possible on them. This of course is a bit harsh/drastic on my part, but it is how I see it. How often would you expect to be walking along a Dart inhabited area of wherever and stumble across what you see in the "typical" Dutch viv? Never???
The thing is what looks good to one may not to another.Viv making is at least as much an art as it is a science, so if you like the look, it will work. If you could actually be in my house and see the progression from my starter vivs to what I am doing now, the stuff I am making now looks like it could have been up-rooted by a tree transplanter and dropped into a viv. My earlier stuff looked more like a mini version of nature. For instance , how do you make a "river" look natural in a 30 gal tank? Most "rivers" I know of span a bit more than 18" and you do not really collect PDFs from rivers.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#12
I wasnt meaning the airplant euro style viv, when I said all three sides panaled, personally some of the Euro vivs make me wanna puke.

I was thinking more visual barrier between tanks and over planting versus the manacured look.

I agree with the river/stream point very much, in something like an Atelopus streams are in thier habitat and they are required for breeding but like you said its not the every day accourance for a dart to be found in a stream.
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#13
Oh..sorry Paul,
Yeh , I can see that working, ( can't exactly visualize it though) but why not just add lots of terraces, "logs" branches, and other natural barriers? You know I am big on heavy planting and leaf litter.
Let them sort out where they settle in. I don't think it is as much a visual thing (I see you see ...I have aggression) as much as is it more nooks and crannies to settle into. They will set up a pecking order. More space , less pecking.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Like Reply
#14
maybe that would work better, I like the look of a "thiket" . I was thinking walls covered in creeping fig (ficus pumulia). but now I think about it a wood pile of such with broms and creeping fig would look great and give the frogs what they need. with heavy planting around the sides and maybe with some peat block teraces (sp?)

I have a surce here in the Uk but that does me no good in the states so i will ask you were can we obtain peat blocks?
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#15
There are places that have peat brick over here. A nice herp shop near MSU has them in stock most all of the time.
I use the brick in every viv I make. Love it.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Like Reply




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