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Bloodline and Genetics Discussion
#1
OK,

After reading a few posts on another forum, I thought I would comment on hybrids.

Dart frog hybrids in the U.S. hobby are few and far between, in comparison to the number of pure morphs hopping around.

Anyone trying to sell a hybrid via the Internet would almost instantly be drummed ( well, maybe not drummed) out of the "hobby" (even though it may be that vendor's business).

There are a few hybrids hopping around , most of which are in the hands of people who realize what they are dealing with and act appropriately and responsibly.

I do know of a pet shop in my home state that sells hybrids. I have sold my frogs to them and have explained my extreme dislike for the practise, but did not think it appropriate at the time to rant about it. I do have plans to go into alternatives for those guys, it is a money thing for them.

It is just as easy to raise a clutch of pure breed Darts as it is hybrid. Not hard to follow. I think this needs to be talked about , much the same as "mixing", line breeding ,and morph crossing , can all be misunderstood.
It is very cool the amount of hard-core policing (in the U.S.) that goes on to try to avoid hybrids in Darts.

Thoughts please ?

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#2
Rich I do agree with you. I am not personally afraid of the consequences of few irresponsible people. The true froggers that already have enough satisfaction with what they have, always will be vigilance of those doing the mixing and also not caring for the blood lines of which i know of few cases of people that had mixed brother and sister by not knowing their line. Still i would not be too concerned. Mistakes happen and can always be fixed. My concerned as I already said in dendroboard is that we can not control the hobby all the way. I am a spanish person and looking around I found that in a Spanish forum lots and lots of people publicly were inbreeding darts and none in that forum had any problem with it. It was a bit shocking that it is seen as cool to inbreed darts just to see what it would come out like. if it is happening in parts of the Spanish dart hobby I wonder if it could be happening also in the Asian hobby.
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#3
Here is where terminology comes into play.

Unfortunately many mistakes can not be un-done.

Inbreeding is line breeding , no?

Line breeding is OK in Darts, no?

Hybridizing and morph mixing is bad. Two pumilio (say a Basti and a Bri Bri) can be breed together and you would have "mutt" pumilio. Still one specie (like tincs) but a mutt. Tincs are all one specie, comprised of sub-species.

Many , many breeders (myself included) breed brother to sister. I will dig out (cite) the best stuff I can explaining that it is OK to line breed these animals for many generations. It may take a day or so to find the best/easiest way to convey this.
Many breeders out there do not want to mix bloodlines because of the fact there are those out there who could care less about keeping track of bloodlines. They also want to see a bit of difference in the different bloodlines ( bluer legs in one, larger spots on others, what-ever) Mixed bloodlines are OK in my opinion , as long as accurate records are kept of exactly what bloodlines were mixed.

Many, many , species of Darts in the U.S. only have two or three bloodlines being worked with here. Let's say I have A, B, and C bloodlines of imitator. I know that bloodline A came from Europe. I know that bloodline B comes from Zoo collection, and bloodline C comes from a university study WC. I see nothing wrong with crossing A with B or C. In fact I know of one very well know and respected breeder who has a line named after him doing exactly what I have described above. I also have no problem breeding A's froglets to each other . It all depends on the circumstance. But what we really need to try to hammer out (Breeder's Union) is a list of terms, "rules" and guidelines for those who already have frogs and are at this moment in dire need of direction.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#4
Rich How far can you breed the same blood line and still be in the safe side? And would the same line breeding be ok for the frogs in the long run?
Is the mixing of the same bloodline frogs, to try to get best qualities from each frog into one?
Is this ok to do if well documented?


Cheers Smile
Xavier
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#5
Hi Xaviar,
Breeding the same bloodline and linebreeding are two different things.
Line breeding is considered breeding mother to son, father to daughter or sibling to sibling. Not sure if it would be linebreeding going back to grandparents and grandchillin's, but that could also be considered linebreeding.
Breeding frogs from the same bloodline could be as diverse as breeding two animals that were imported from a specific population of frogs from the wild. It could also be as narrow as linebreeding.
Linebreeding is always breeding from the same bloodlines. Breeding from the same bloodlines is NOT always linebreeding.
I have heard there is no problem with linebreeding to well after F10 generations.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#6
Hi Rich,

Rich that was certainly very helpful. Smile

Thank you

Xavier
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#7
Rich, I would totally DISAGREE with that old saying of breeding to the tenth F generation. I mean, sure they may appear fine, but there is going to be some very undesirable traits mixed in with it. Perhaps something such as disease, possibly something internal won't develop properly, or something. And in 10 years, it will be way to easy to be well past the 10th generation mark, and then what? I think that we need to emphasize breeding separate bloodlines of the same morphs, from the same locals originally. I don't agree with morph crossing, but imbreeding is just as bad, eventually. That is why so much albinism is showing up, in my opinion. Hopefully soon in school I can get some genetics testing going.

Ed Parker
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#8
Ed,
I know what you are concerned about , as far as linebreeding to f10 but what kind of genetic predisposition to disease are you expecting? As stated before , there are different reasons for linebreeding. One of which is the fact that it may be impossible to find stock from same WC populations to mix with current U.S. stock. If we can only breed to the same line , from the same import, (this happens sometimes) linebreeding must occur to a certain extent. Again, I would have to do a little digging to see how far back you breed related frogs to still consider it linebreeding (great-great-grandson to great-great-grandma??). My point is that there are tons of frogs hopping around that are very , very, healthy that have been line breed for many generations. There are also many WCs, F1s , and F2s hopping around with some MAJOR problems. So I guess to say that a few F10 frogs may have a few issues is not out of line. I will look up some hard facts as soon as I get a bit of time to dig through a couple books. I would also say that I do not think it necessary to linebreed to the F10 mark because there are enough options to trade to people who have relatives far enough removed from the stock in "need" of being breed to the F10 generation. There are benefits to linebreeding , especially in the case of Darts where inbreeding is not a concern (as much) as it is in other animals.
It is nice to see certain traits stick with a bloodline to differentiate between certain lines.
Not to dis-agree to strongly but with supposition for disease, albinism, and the boldest statement that linebreeding is (can be) just as bad as hybridization, I would need to read a few facts to back it up.
As I stated, there are reasons for line breeding and mixing of lines. Never hybridization.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#9
After the recent posting of hybrids for sale on Dendroboard , I am interested in asking froggers what their opinions on any "Pros" of hybrids in the Dart hobby would be.
If we get any, the "Cons" list can come afterwards, fast and furious.

I would also like to comment on the "honesty" of the guy attempting the sin of hybrid sales. I have read people praising this guy for being sooo honest about the fact that he is selling hybrids. "At least I am being up front and honest".
How would this set with the froggers out there?;

"Hi! I just moved into your neighborhood. I have just been released from prison . I am a convicted child molester. But I have done my time and plan on settling down next door to you and your children. Just thought I would be up front and honest about it. See you neighbor."

The difference is the child molester did HIS time. Honesty about atrocities does not make the atrocities ANY LESS DISGUSTING!!!

Rich Frye
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Like Reply
#10
Well, I agree with you. I made that clear in my posts on DB, but I removed mine because I wanted to get out of the convo. I just didn't want to get into a bigger argument with more people. I think supporting hybrids is foolish and your child molester example is good. Too bad no one posted something like that on DB.
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#11
Just call me Buddha and All but id rather have a guy live next to me that Hybridizes Darts, then a child Molestor. I think they are on the way other side of Spectrum. Compairing a Dart Hybrider to Molestor, SMH. And for the record i do not believe in Hybrids. haha. -Buddha
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