Can we recommend 10 gallon tanks AT ALL ?

[Philsuma]

The 10 gallon "fish tank" aquarium is everywhere. All stores carry them - Walmart, ect. Every yard sale or flea market has them. They are in your basement, attic, shed, storage facility, behind your house and possibly even in your yard.

They are the single most common, cheap and available glass enclosure around. Period. I would bet it would be easier to find a ten gallon aquarium than a glass "gold fish bowl".

So what to do? What do we - the experienced members of the hobby, recommend to new hobbyists when they ask us " I have a 10 gallon tank. How many frogs can I put in it" ?

My personal answer is always "All things being equal, Bigger is always better". If you have the time, patience, ability and a mere few extra dollars - get a 20 gallon tank. Heck, wait for the $1.00 per gallon Petco and Petsmart sales that are 1 to 2 times a year !

10 gallon tanks do have their place though. They can be use as temporary tanks, Quarantine tanks, grow out tanks, extra room for seperating a frog - things like that.

If a new hobbyist tells me that he has a 10 gallon tank and NO OTHER possiblity of anything else right now, I would tell them to only think of it as a "first tank" or a temporary enclosure and look to upgrade and enlarge it as soon as possible.

some thoughts...

[Michael Lawrence]

10 gallon tanks do have their place though. They can be use as temporary tanks, Quarantine tanks, grow out tanks, extra room for seperating a frog - things like that.

If a new hobbyist tells me that he has a 10 gallon tank and NO OTHER possiblity of anything else right now, I would tell them to only think of it as a "first tank" or a temporary enclosure and look to upgrade and enlarge it as soon as possible.

some thoughts...

I would suggest that be said every time. A ten gallon viv will be ok as a quarantine or temp viv. Even a froglet bin but there really isnt no reason other than the greed to own a much of frogs in one space to keep them in a ten gallon. The amount of money we put into these frogs makes it look a bit cheap or even uncaring to settle for a ten gallon.

It also heightens the possibility for a parasite load to increase much more rapidly, It limits you abilities as far as decor and plant life and they are much more likely to stay over saturated as less work is usually put into them as far as keeping them drained and thriving with micro fauna.
Michael

[JJuchems]

I believe they have a place and are worth using. The hobby has a cyclical cycle. Early text refer to 55 gallon tanks as the smallest tank for PDF. Later replaced by 20g to 10g. The trend again is a push for larger terrarium. I have no issue with larger terrariums, but I do not see them as a must. I am not going to start telling every new hobbyist to start a 40 breeder of 55 gallon tank. I see one of the benefits of smaller tanks such as 20g are they are easy to monitor your frogs. I have used 10g with no issue for adult pairs, and I know many hobbyist that do. They are extremely limited on decor and plants. I also use larger tanks, it varies by morph, species, and what started to propagate in what tanks/tubs.

Certain species I am more interested in knowing if surface area is more important than hight in propagation. I am running a few test, one level is using 10g. The size of terrarium seems to based on several factors, but a push by hobbyist preference plays a role on what they recommend. When asked, I recommend Exo-Terra.

The confines of a aquariums are no longer the state of the hobby. However, Henry Ford was onto something, aquariums are widely available after years of mass production. With new Euro style terrariums, as hobbyist we need to continue the use of these terrariums if we want to continue to see them in the hobby. I see them as a much better introduction to the hobby. I would rather say, pick-up an 18" cube than well a 10g works but a 20 gallon is better. If you have the money look at 20 long or 29 or 30 breeder. I am not going to abandon what has worked for me.

FYI, Tetra will have their own terrariums out in March. Open front based on the aquarium model and I need to check but they are produced by Aqueon (aka All-Glass). I don't have all the information with me at the moment for all the details.

[D3monic]

Hmm I would be interested in seeing a aqueon open front tank. Too bad I will be at capacity.

I think one thing that needs to be taken into concideration is the desire to have several species of dart frog. Most hobbiest start out with the thought of setting up a tank with multiple colored frogs.....if they never visit a dart frog site I am sure they end up doing just that. If they are fortunate enough to venture into a forum they quickly learn that it is frowned upon. Not everyone is blessed with lots of space, or a forgiving spouse for that matter. If they are told a minimum tank size is say 55 gal there is a very good chance they will end up with a secrete tank full of multiple colored pretty frogs. Not saying that 10gal is the way to go either but the larger exo terras and 20 gals seem about the way to go.

I have two Cristobals in a 75gal, they only use about 30 gal worth of space. They have never even set foot on the otherside of the tank.

[Michael Lawrence]

I agree some frogs dont use the entire viv. My issue is with people keeping pairs of fullgrown breeding tincs in 10's. When you pass say ten pairs its obvious your just after numbers and money. To have 30-50 of them this way is just stupid.

I do and have always had the space and I never had a breeding pair in less than a 55 and froglet bins were 20 longs forever. I see just as much breeding behavior as anyone in a 10 or 20 does, Its all in the care and setup.

Michael

[Philsuma]

yep...that's another issue for perhaps another thread but a Front Opening Vivarium is 100% the way to go in this hobby.

We must support and patronize the makers of these vivs. They are essential to this hobby.

[Michael Lawrence]

Ive never used front opening vvs. I did make a bunch of mini verts for morph-outs but I find them to be a pain. Giving it another try though with my new projects.

Michael

[Philsuma]

Ive never used front opening vvs. I did make a bunch of mini verts for morphouts but I find them to be a pain. Giving it another try though with my new projects.

Michael

Once you make a few...you'll never want to go back.

[D3monic]

The accessories are tacky but the tanks look pretty good. I like the sliding euro doors.

[youtube]ni5RFMNWZPQ[/youtube]

I might have to set something up in the playroom when these come out...hehe.

[Philsuma]

Saw that in the recent issue of Reptiles magazine.

NICE !

WANT

[JJuchems]

Thank for posting the video, I am on my netbook and it is bookmarked on my laptop. One nice feature is a pre-drilled drain. My question is what is the price?

[D3monic]

Thank for posting the video, I am on my netbook and it is bookmarked on my laptop. One nice feature is a pre-drilled drain. My question is what is the price?

And that my friend is a good one... If under $250 I would spring for it. Looks to be roughly 40 gal maybe more. Hard to say. I did not see any dimensions.

[Philsuma]

Exoterra now has 12 different sizes too...

Competition = good for the hobby.

[D3monic]

They really need to improve on the design they currently have. Not only are they not FF proof they are not even Cricket proof. If you put out a product that you KNOW the consumer will have to modify in order for it to be usable you think that they would concider fixing the problems. How hard would it be to replace the vent section with screen.

That aside I would of really liked to get the Xlarge Xtall but no one has them yet.

[JJuchems]

The sales trend may hurt the hobby (and push back on the topic). Look at the two major pet chain stores.

PetsMart: High volume of aquariums on hand. Pushed out single Exo-Terra for the terrarium kits (higher price) and started carrying Zoo Med. When picking up a few tanks in December I found that they switched the 10g kits to Tetra so I am guessing they are going to carry the new vivarium. Carrying both seems to put Exo-Terra at a disadvantage since it is only the kits and most people do not want to pay the higher price.

PetCo: Stopped selling Exo-Terra (I bought all my local stores for $19.99 each) and brought in Zoo Med. Seems to show some inconstancy in the market. We had folks the herp society think Exo-Terra terrariums are no longer in production for a while.

The terrariums price tend to push folks to aquariums. Price will ultimately influence the new hobbyist.

[JJuchems]

They really need to improve on the design they currently have. Not only are they not FF proof they are not even Cricket proof. If you put out a product that you KNOW the consumer will have to modify in order for it to be usable you think that they would concider fixing the problems. How hard would it be to replace the vent section with screen.

That aside I would of really liked to get the Xlarge Xtall but no one has them yet.

Hands down, Exo-Terra are my terrarium of choice for amphibians. My preference slides a bit to Zoo Med on arboreal snakes. As much as I like custom built the price puts me off. Unless I build it, I use Exo-Terra(Hagen).

[evolvstll]

While bigger may be better..............I use a variety of tanks from zoomed, exoterra, protean, and others. I do have a variety of sizes. However over half of my tanks are and have been ten gallons. I have tinc pairs 8+ years in tens and all doing well. Granted I do silicone wood and rocks to increase the floor space. The front of most of the tanks have a sloped water feature. In fact when I do not check for eggs I often find the tincs transporting or tads in the water feature.
I have another local hobbyist that has been in the hobby over 2 times longer than myself that even keeps most of his pumilio in tens. This includes a few pair of blue jeans that all breed.
It comes down to preference. Between myself and above mentioned hobbyist you cannot deny our success. I see the trend in the hobby with quite a few wanting to get away from tens. To knock them out right and to imply that using tens makes you from the devil is just wrong. Just wanted to put my 2 cents in.........

[Philsuma]

There's an ongoing personal issue between two hobbyists (at least 2) regarding the 10 gallon tank size and some of that has kinda bled onto this thread.

I was specific when I started this thread, and that was to discuss a Tank Size Recommendation for New Hobbyists.

The hobby has got to move forward, and to do so, we can easily raise the bar on a number of Care and Husbandry issues -tank size being an easy one.

We are ALL guilty of not practicing what we preach to some degree. "Do as I say, not as I do" - that sort of thing, but we should all be able to swallow our pride and recognize that the 10 gallon tank, while possibly adequate, is FAR from "Best Practice" and steer new people into a 20 gallon for any given pair of frogs or better yet, a medium sized Zoomed or Exoterra.

[Michael Lawrence]

Evolvstll I never said you cant have success breeding in 10's and Im sure that if your frogs were tested, treated if needed and the viv was setup to maintain micro fauna and quality plant growth the tincs would do well in 5's or 2's. I just find it to be much less about the hobby and your like of the frogs and more on the grounds of a puppy mill if you have 50 ten gallons because it allows you to have more frogs this way.

Teaching is all we have to give the new hobbyists and if we use our time to suggest the possibilities it gives them ideas to build on. It is a very proven fact that larger viv's allow for many more options and micro fauna populations seem to do better. But there is one thing that does do better in 10's and other smaller viv's. The contaminates build up quicker and parasites thrive in these conditions.

Michael

[Philsuma]

There are certain phrases that we are NEVER going to quash, remove or get away from, in the hobby.

One is "Rule of Thumb". Say it with me.....rule...of....thumb. It so lightly "trips off the tounge".

I hate it.

BUT, it's here to stay because people love saying it and it's firmly entrenched in the American Vernacular with regards to everything. So instead of beating our heads against the wall to think of ways to talk around it, remove it, ect....we can at least make it "Better". We also realize that "gallon size" is a husbandry and care oversimplification, but the hobby desperately needs an oversimplifiation to reach new and most likely, young, hobbyists.

Let's try and kill this saying "The Rule of Thumb is 1 frog per 5 Gallons"

by replacing it with "The Rule of Thumb is 1 frog per 10 gallons"

Better ? Man, I hope so....