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Communal raising/tads occuping same water
#1
Ok i know most guys use little cups of one form or another,one day when all our room is filled up we might just have quite a few tadpoles to raise,this has become really apparent to me with just our suberblues on the go,and now the mysties starting to kick in.Ok the S B's are very young and haven't hatched well but if they had i would be scratching my head already.(latest clutch looks very good7 eggs all good none bad first time).
So i am thinking about making some form of setup where we have a tray with a mesh bottom divided into compartments,suspended in a shallow tank. Using an external filter to change and cleanse the water.Uvb light suspended above.
I know a couple of guys over here whom utilise this type of setup with great success,and a dutch company rana actually make something akin to what i am talking about,but me being me i will make it.
So here come the Q.s
what size should the mesh be to let tad waste out,there is a caveat here,i want to continue with our live food regime if possible so want to keep blood worms and gnat midge larvae in the little compartments that the tads occupy.
I have read lots about the possibility of tads excreting growth inhibiting hormones,does anyone have any detail on this,is this applicable to all darts,i have been told mysties are really bad for this,but of course very few of you will be as fortunate as we are over here to keep these.
What are the risks of diseases being transferred from species in the tads,they must be heightened but if all the parent stock has been here healthy for a good time is this an issue.
What size should the compartments be,should i have different sizes for species: i am thinking for the first week in cups glasses and then moving to the above set up.
Currently we are looking at around 18-24 tanks in the room,some of these will eventually be used by obligate egg feeders,so won't be applicable but just seeing these SB's has set alarm bells ringing coupled with 10 -12 months for a mystie tad to morph.
I realise that the single cup method is proven and works for a lot of guys,but i already hate the moving process from cup to cup,its not the work we revel init its the stress to little tads that messes with me coupled with the gradual constant decrease in water quality until change time comes. We have thought and read greatly on this matter last few weeks,after the initial shock of what i thought was going to happen in sometime, actually started sooner than expected,
Thanks for all replies
regards all
bring it on eh?
Stu
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#2
I think you'll like this then.....

http://www.brianstropicals.com/pages/Ta ... ystem.html
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#3
Philsuma Wrote:I think you'll like this then.....

http://www.brianstropicals.com/pages/Ta ... ystem.html
rock'n'roll Phil,thats a wow,am, K nackered but will go over that many times untill its all lodged,so this,worry about tads surpressing each other is unfounded?
Stu
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#4
Depends on the species and who you talk to.

Do I believe tads secrete hormones and can supress or damage each other....I think it's entirely possible.
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#5
Philsuma Wrote:Depends on the species and who you talk to.

Do I believe tads secrete hormones and can supress or damage each other....I think it's entirely possible.
It just can't be a wide spread rumour Phil,in my homework i come across it to often,but some folks seem to be doing incredibly well with the as above type set up,i can see the evolutionary logic for it in a brom vase/small pool,and for the talked of cannibalistic tendencies,which i don't doubt either,but in larger bodies of water or water with enough food supplied, it it counter productive for the species ,i wonder if there are some form of, as yet undiscovered triggers for both the growth limiting and the cannibalism. You work the cups do you Phil? have you ever tried anything like the above or seen it in practice,with your knowledge and contacts it is something you must have thought about...lol 10 yrs ago :lol:
Stu
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#6
10 years...not quite. Only @ 7 with Darts.

I have seen Leuc tads "alligator" each other and take bites out of tails ect. That alone made me switch to 4oz individual cups. Cups work fine and as you say....are probably closer to natural for most species.

I think with more available food, the predation will slow or cease but the hormone thing? Why chance it? Just raise everyone in cups. It's just as easy and you have more control.
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#7
Philsuma Wrote:10 years...not quite. Only @ 7 with Darts.

I have seen Leuc tads "alligator" each other and take bites out of tails ect. That alone made me switch to 4oz individual cups. Cups work fine and as you say....are probably closer to natural for most species.

I think with more available food, the predation will slow or cease but the hormone thing? Why chance it? Just raise everyone in cups. It's just as easy and you have more control.
Yeah i DO hear you Phil,and it most probably will be where we end up with the cups,but i always tend to ty to explore all avenues,of course with livestock its a nightmare going away from the tried and tested,and i guess you already have a good idea how much we care about our charges,im not trying to play devils advocate its more exploration of all possibilities,pros and cons and then making something of an informed descision.So difficult. There is a clear split on this one,the cups,no hormone problems,but ever decreasing water quality until change and the multi tad tank,with constantly replenished filtered water,and the possible risks of not only hormones but aslo disease comtamination,guys whom i respect grately are going both ways here,ha and the odd one whom just chucks few tads in a large body of water and has absolutly no probs too ,just to mess it all up! I guess we will have to try both the former,if i can get enough tads in a batch to actually split them and do half one way and half the other that would be the logical comprimise to find the best method for us,but either way don't want any losses,hard this,really hard am utterly torn.
Ahh mate i stepped back from myself yesterday,after sorting out our first ever 5 little dart tads,mate you'ld be smiling,5 little whisky glasses each one had a bit of elodea a bit of duck weed a tiny bit of fish food a couple of bloodworms and a couple of midge levae picked to suit tad size,i suddenly realised i had tried to create 5 little mini ponds in a glass,and all the time i was doing it it was almost subconscious,daft sod i am.....but they are so precious!
Thanks
Stu
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#8
Hi Stu

I would like to suggest that you try both. Get your cups going first and then when you feel like messing around with things try a communal tank. I do a lot of cups. I did try a communal tank twice. They were fresh 20 liter tanks with java moss and duckweed. RO water with RO right and Black water extract. Same as my cups. The first tank had Azureus in it and it turned out to be a disaster. 4 tads were in it. 2 came out to fast with SLS. The last 2 came out way to late and had SLS. My second tanks was with 4 Leucs. They were heavily fed and they still would bite one another. However, they all came out fine. I also have vivs with water in them and can raise Tincs in the smallest pools of water. I'm just as lost as the next guy when it comes to this, but I think communal tanks need to be very well aged with lots of natural food for them to forage on. I do intend on trying communal tanks again, but most trusted method at the moment is cups. I've also know people to do a system like Phil posted. I had a buddy lose every tad he had overnight due to some kind of disease. IMO if you wanted to do this, I would do smaller versions of it. It would reduce the risk.

Cheers
Glenn
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#9
frogfreak Wrote:Hi Stu

I would like to suggest that you try both. Get your cups going first and then when you feel like messing around with things try a communal tank. I do a lot of cups. I did try a communal tank twice. They were fresh 20 liter tanks with java moss and duckweed. RO water with RO right and Black water extract. Same as my cups. The first tank had Azureus in it and it turned out to be a disaster. 4 tads were in it. 2 came out to fast with SLS. The last 2 came out way to late and had SLS. My second tanks was with 4 Leucs. They were heavily fed and they still would bite one another. However, they all came out fine. I also have vivs with water in them and can raise Tincs in the smallest pools of water. I'm just as lost as the next guy when it comes to this, but I think communal tanks need to be very well aged with lots of natural food for them to forage on. I do intend on trying communal tanks again, but most trusted method at the moment is cups. I've also know people to do a system like Phil posted. I had a buddy lose every tad he had overnight due to some kind of disease. IMO if you wanted to do this, I would do smaller versions of it. It would reduce the risk.

Cheers
Hi again Glen(first male cit going from strength to strength, way to go yet but winning thankyou sir!!).
As you know its all very early for us Glen,good points well made! Could i ask for a little detail on your own experiances,were the "biting leucs" feed much animal protien? What water temps did you keep these and the azzies at? Sad for your friend did he /she ever find out what was the cause of the die off,and had the adults shown any problems,or maybe a better question,was he also running cups along side as a control, with no issues?
interesting this and as above i wasn't really expecting to be asking these questions so soon,in my ignorance i thought that this was something to worry about a few months at least later down the line,with the possible exception of the mysties whom are proven,but i thought the stress of the move would put paid to any thoughts of breeding there too for a good while.
Greatly appreciate your imput Glen,
regards
Stu
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#10
Hey Stu

Glad to hear the Cits is doing better. Big Grin

The biting Leucs were fed a high protein diet. I think it was around 57%. Somewhere around there. The water temps were at room temps. 20-22c In that range. My friend did not have any cups. He was using a tad system only. I don't think he really knew what happened, but assumed it was some kind af disease that spread through the whole thing. I'm not a big fan of the tads sharing water for that reason alone. Like I said before though, I will try a communal setups, but not on a large scale like that. Maybe 20-30- liter tanks with 6-10 tads in each one. I am very happy with the cups though. I do the "Dirty" cup method and top the water up only, so it's not much work at all.

Best
Glenn
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#11
frogfreak Wrote:Hey Stu

Glad to hear the Cits is doing better. Big Grin

The biting Leucs were fed a high protein diet. I think it was around 57%. Somewhere around there. The water temps were at room temps. 20-22c In that range. My friend did not have any cups. He was using a tad system only. I don't think he really knew what happened, but assumed it was some kind af disease that spread through the whole thing. I'm not a big fan of the tads sharing water for that reason alone. Like I said before though, I will try a communal setups, but not on a large scale like that. Maybe 20-30- liter tanks with 6-10 tads in each one. I am very happy with the cups though. I do the "Dirty" cup method and top the water up only, so it's not much work at all.

Best
cheers,Glen better every day,strikes more accurate,movement better,more leg strength,happy in his gaff,years of watching animals ok in a different form paid off i HOPE!!!!!!,so greatful for your knowledge to stop the worry!!!!
ok back to topic Smile Dirty cup method,yup understood,as per rain forest fresh water tops up, cups in resovoir,they overflow,resovoir drains also acts as temp balance....correct? Tell me Glen was the protien animal? specifically? ithink that might be the crunch word(s).Glen we are feeding alot of live food coupled with tetramin and cyclops-EEZE,would you make any amendments? Forgive me digging mate sometimes the big answers are in the simple things.
As per your friend i hear your disease worries,utterly! but its difficult to tell,there are so many other factors that could cause,these results.
massively apreciate your time thoughts and imput Glen,
be lucky always dude
Stu
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#12
I made a mistake on the protein content. Our first feeding is Frozen Cyclop-eeze. (50% protein) We were using fish flake for the first feed and were experiencing a lot of mouth rot. Since switching over to the frozen cyclop-eeze we have had zero cases of this. We also feed Tetra Microcrab Cyclop-eeze granules (42% protein) and Omega One Super colour fish flake (42% protein) I've only fed live foods once. Blackworms, I believe.

There's no one way to do things. We've only been raising Tads for just over a year, but I'm very comfortable with the routine we have going now. I'm sure I'll keep changing things up as we go. It comes with the territory and that's one thing that I really enjoy about the hobby. You never stop learning. 8)

Your feeding regime sounds as good as the next one IMO. Smile

Best
Glenn
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#13
I think the biggest mistake with raising tads is overfeeding them (I only feed mine twice a week), like Glenn said many different ways to do things. I feed tropical fish flakes, tadpole bites and sera micron.
-Beth
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#14
BcsTx Wrote:I think the biggest mistake with raising tads is over feeding them (I only feed mine twice a week)

That's a very good point, Beth. We feed once a week, sometimes twice. They nibble on the Java moss and Duckweed between feedings.
Glenn
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#15
frogfreak Wrote:I made a mistake on the protein content. Our first feeding is Frozen Cyclop-eeze. (50% protein) We were using fish flake for the first feed and were experiencing a lot of mouth rot. Since switching over to the frozen cyclop-eeze we have had zero cases of this. We also feed Tetra Microcrab Cyclop-eeze granules (42% protein) and Omega One Super colour fish flake (42% protein) I've only fed live foods once. Blackworms, I believe.

There's no one way to do things. We've only been raising Tads for just over a year, but I'm very comfortable with the routine we have going now. I'm sure I'll keep changing things up as we go. It comes with the territory and that's one thing that I really enjoy about the hobby. You never stop learning. 8)

Your feeding regime sounds as good as the next one IMO. Smile

Best
Yeah Glen i love the learning process associated with this too. Right there in your post is something i haven't come across,the mouth rot caused by high protien in the initial feeding,now we have the cyclops i will stay away from the fish flake for the first week,prevention better than cure!
Agreed finding that method that works for you is all,its fascinating how many slightly differnt methods we all use to overcome the same problems.
thanks mate
Stu
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#16
BcsTx Wrote:I think the biggest mistake with raising tads is overfeeding them (I only feed mine twice a week), like Glenn said many different ways to do things. I feed tropical fish flakes, tadpole bites and sera micron.
Beth your post has been a real eye opener ! I very much think from what you and Glen have just said i AM over feeding! Granted the use of live food has a part in this: My logic has been utilise the fish flake andcyclops-EEze ,now,to make sure trace elements/minerals not in the live food are available. And of course the live food hopefully doesn't contaminate the water to the same level,so its being given pretty much ad lib.
I thought that the reason for not feeding too much was purely assocaited with issues of descending water quality,ie polluting the waterwith wasted food,is that what you mean or are there other reasons for only feeding bi weekly/weekly in Glen's case?
I am also aware just how quickly our very first tad is growing( water temp mid seventies)and have many times been told that tads that morph out quick are not always the strongest froglets,of course i have nothing to judge these growth rates against and don't yet know whether he will morph out earlier than desired,or just be the size of a bullfrog lol. Seriously though i think i will cut back a bit. My thought process was that having to actually run down/hunt the grub would make them stronger,and he is very strong. Yeah we all have slightly different methods,its going to be very interesting to see how this ends up.
Thanks again Beth
Stu
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#17
Stu&Shaz Wrote:Right there in your post is something i haven't come across,the mouth rot caused by high protien in the initial feeding,now we have the cyclops i will stay away from the fish flake for the first week,prevention better than cure!

I don't think they got mouth rot because of the protein level. I think it was because I fed to early, the flake started to get moldy and it was transferred to the Tad. That's my thoughts, anyways...It's a lot easier to feed them a tiny amount of Cylop-eeze as it doesn't tend to get moldy or foul the water. I'm sure other things would work too, but flake food seems to get gross fast. We wait 3-4 days before their first feeding. Something that was passed along to us and has been working well. 8)

Best
Glenn
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#18
I think the mouth fungus (white-ish) is indicative of a larger problem area - possibly the body cavity and expressing thru / around the mouth.

High Protein diet has been referred to as a possible cause.
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#19
Philsuma Wrote:I think the mouth fungus (white-ish) is indicative of a larger problem area - possibly the body cavity and expressing thru / around the mouth.

High Protein diet has been referred to as a possible cause.

Thanks, I didn't know that. I would still avoid fish flake as a first feed though.
Glenn
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#20
There are algae and spirulina fish flakes too...not all Fish Food is protein based.
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https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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