Cycling Darts for breeding,and the opposite

[Stu&Shaz]

I have read much about increasing humidity,feeding and maybe temperatures(last bit might be wrong) to bring dart frogs into breeding condition. Could you please give me as much detail as possible as to what you do - how long you actually allow the frogs to breed for, and how you stop them. As our frogs in some cases are already breeding my particular concerns are strangely more concerned with when to stop them ? how long their natural breeding cycles would be, and not asking too much from them. So this is more aimed at the long term health of our little guys,and within that stronger more viable offspring when they are breeding.

Although for all beginners any ways to actually get their frogs into "A one" breeding condition would be gratefully received too, so that they might get to experience the joys of courtship tadpoles etc etc.

Any species specific anomalies or details i would also find fascinating. Thank you.

Regards,
Stu

[frogfreak]

I'll take a stab at this one, but keep in mind that this is our second breeding season. We breed Tincs and Auratus. I'm not going to count the Leucs. They are ready when the feel it's time. Streaky breeders.

To get them going,

We do this in early spring. We gradually increase the humidity and temps. We also start feeding them heavily. IMO Tincs and Auratus don't breed well at all unless they have fat reserves. The more plump they are the more they breed. We also start feeding some FF larvae to fatten them up. I also like to mix up there tanks a bit. Add fresh leaves, move the cocohut around. Add a plant or two or pull one. Anything to get the male to claim his territory. Even a trimming will do this IMO. The generally really get going when the first storms roll through. We usually breed them for 6-7 months. We supplement them with Vit A throughout the season every couple of weeks during the season. (This is something new for us) The room temps are aroung 77F during this time. Tanks temps are around 82F at the top to 78 at the bottom.

Stopping them,

Sometimes we can't get them to stop, but we certainly can slow them down a lot. We don't pull any eggs at all. If they transport that's fine. We don't pull tads either. If they make it to land that's fine. We generally slow the feeding, misting down very slowly and monitor their body weight. We feed as little as twice a week. The temps fall on their own to as low as 66-68F at night and max out at 70-72 during the day. For the most part they breed very little during this time.

Best

[Philsuma]

Spot on Glenn.

1. Mist Heavy

2. Feed Heavy (supps and vits)

or...the reverse.

[Stu&Shaz]

I'll take a stab at this one, but keep in mind that this is our second breeding season. We breed Tincs and Auratus. I'm not going to count the Leucs. They are ready when the feel it's time. Streaky breeders.

To get them going,

We do this in early spring. We gradually increase the humidity and temps. We also start feeding them heavily. IMO Tincs and Auratus don't breed well at all unless they have fat reserves. The more plump they are the more they breed. We also start feeding some FF larvae to fatten them up. I also like to mix up there tanks a bit. Add fresh leaves, move the cocohut around. Add a plant or two or pull one. Anything to get the male to claim his territory. Even a trimming will do this IMO. The generally really get going when the first storms roll through. We usually breed them for 6-7 months. We supplement them with Vit A throughout the season every couple of weeks during the season. (This is something new for us) The room temps are aroung 77F during this time. Tanks temps are around 82F at the top to 78 at the bottom.

Stopping them,

Sometimes we can't get them to stop, but we certainly can slow them down a lot. We don't pull any eggs at all. If they transport that's fine. We don't pull tads either. If they make it to land that's fine. We generally slow the feeding, misting down very slowly and monitor their body weight. We feed as little as twice a week. The temps fall on their own to as low as 66-68F at night and max out at 70-72 during the day. For the most part they breed very little during this time.

Best

Fabulous answer Glen really appreciate the detail too,and your time, i note the vit A, tell me mate what was your hatch rate % before you started utilising this and afterwards...any difference or is it to new to qualify ? when you say feed heavily do you mean daily ?...so there is almost always grub available ? Ha i also note the low pressure( ie thunderstorms), we have just had that here and got to watch some wonderful courtship last night and a couple of good clutches of eggs this morning,with a certain spotty male harassing everything in sight :roll: :lol: We also have some slow leucs...lots of calling but am also not worried they are still young and will come when they are ready, just out of interest which morphs of tinc and auratus do you keep ?
Good stuff kiddo.

thank you,
Stu

[frogfreak]

Thanks Stu and your welcome!

We haven't been using the Vit A long enough to see if it's made any difference yet, Stu. We did switch to Rapashy calcium plus only about 7 months ago and are having good results. Last year I was rotating through 5 different supplements. It's nice to only have to buy one. Well, I guess 2 now that we have the Repashy Vit A. lol Right now I'd say our hatch rates from egg to Tad are (Guessing) 80-85%. Somewhere around there.

We're keeping,

2.2 Camapana Auratus
3.2 Blue/Bronze Auratus

Tincs,

2.1 Alanis
2.2 Azureus (separate tanks)
4.1 Bakhuis
1.1 Powders
4.1 Patricias
2.2 Citronellas (separate tanks)
1.1 Oyapok
0.1 Regina (Lonely girl)
0.2 New river (Probable pair)
2.4 Leucs

There's our herd, you and Shaz?

[Stu&Shaz]

very much just starting
Luecs0.0.5 at least 2 m calling
0.0.2 cits...suspected pr
1.2.1 Mystie young sold as male but suspect gravid female
1.2 suberblue auratus
0.0.5 panama special auratus
1.1 Ranitomeyer summersi
4tanks awaiting,occupation... one for thumbs possibly vanzo, azzie, cem pum, and tinc..possibly matcho...2 tanks 1/2 built one 5 auratus 2nd unsure
Basically just getting the working methods down Glen,first frogs 25th feb.... homework: building feed stocks and alot of plants maybe 18month before frogs.We've been somewhat side tracked by the speed of which they started breeding especially the S.B's which were only youngsters when we got them in march,we were told feed the hell out of them,they'll make quite big frogs,we did they have,and then the eggs started,we were extrondinarily lucky to get 1.2 at the time there were only 6 here i believe of which we got 3 totally by chance as someone else had reserved them but pulled out :lol: we just went to see them!
we're lovin it
Stu

[frogfreak]

You guys have a nice collection going already.

Breeding definitely gets you sidetracked. The same thing happened to us and we slowed down to a snails pace. haha
It's been quite some time since we've picked up any new frogs. We've had Darts for 2+ years now and are finally in a comfy place, with their needs. Still making small changes, here and there. I never seem to be satisfied with the way I do their vivs though. :|

[Stu&Shaz]

You guys have a nice collection going already.

Breeding definitely gets you sidetracked. The same thing happened to us and we slowed down to a snails pace. haha
It's been quite some time since we've picked up any new frogs. We've had Darts for 2+ years now and are finally in a comfy place, with their needs. Still making small changes, here and there. I never seem to be satisfied with the way I do their vivs though. :|

Hmm have a DEEP desire for hist/sylv but i won't go there....but it will happen i guess. viv wise i really ponder on deeply mate,i try, as to what i can find, to do a viv to the frog,i want them to run for yonks so am real slow,once i have the idea sorted,we're onit like a rash,but its awfully slow,i guess i take the long way around. I want it to give them the best possible life as much climbing frame as possible hidey holes ya know. Make a challenging environment for 'em. I really need to walk where these frogs live Glen but that won't happen so i find what i can and try to build to that,i get lots of really kind and posative feed back ,but really I am the same,tis like at school...could do better. All done and said though it don't matter what we think them frogs gotta be happy,thats what matters, the goal is to not build one twice get frogs in there that are happy then leave them happy,our epoxy route is my best hope that a viv will last,whether it will or not i don't know i haven't found the guy with a set up running for 10 yrs yet,thats what we are after,ha will it work ...heaven only knows
regards
Stu
i really should try to stay on topic though,hey ho :lol:

[guppygal]

If I'm reading this correctly, light mist/light feed means that the frogs probably won't breed - is that correct? How long can they go like that?

[frogfreak]

I do it for 5-6 months out of the year. They are def not skinny by and stretch, but when they're breeding I like to keep them on the plump side. I also have water in every tank in case I cross the line with the misting. I just don't want to over breed them as I don't think it's good for them.

[guppygal]

With humidity control and feeding in mind, do you think that there is sufficient information being relayed to new hobbyists how to raise and lower the humidity and feed more or less depending on whether or not they want to breed their frogs and if they do, how to not over-breed them?

Is it possible to keep poison dart frogs in an ideal situation where breeding does not occur? Ever?

[frogfreak]

It's something you have to get a feel for. They do breed in the winter months, but they slow down to a crawl. I don't pull ANY eggs either.

The only way to get them to not breed would be to have all the same sexes. :lol:

[guppygal]

Wintertime is when you drop down the humidity and the food, right? I bet your frogroom gets pretty cool during that time, considering where you are located.

No, I don't think same sex frog tanks would work. You know how pissy females can be.... :?

Anybody else care to chime in?

[Stu&Shaz]

Wintertime is when you drop down the humidity and the food, right? I bet your frogroom gets pretty cool during that time, considering where you are located.

No, I don't think same sex frog tanks would work. You know how pissy females can be.... :?

Anybody else care to chime in?

Have read that the prerequisite for breeding is dependent on fat reserves. Here's a strange thought though,and i relise your climates are very different to ours in some places but the tendancy,seems to be to not breed in the winter,that is cirtainly the route we are planning,but don't alot of our charges experiance not breeding in the summer due to hot and dry? Of course glad to be corrected if i'm getting mixed up ! I guess northern southern,hemisphere could be tied up in this as well.There is a sceintist here messing with how the angle of the sun affects how darts breed,it is going to be interesting to see what he eventually comes up with
Kirsti part of the reason for posting this was not only that request for knowledge ,but also i don't think beginners are made aware enough of how important giving the frogs a rest is,understandably there is a focus towards breeding,why not its important and a joy/thrill for all keepers,but the frogs downtime should be stressed to be of huge importance as well,
regards
Stu

[frogfreak]

I bet your frogroom gets pretty cool during that time, considering where you are located.

Ummm, I don't live in an igloo. We do have heat, eh. AC too! :lol:

[guppygal]

No, Glenn, I think an igloo is a requirement way up yonder. It's probably buried under the snow somewhere.

The thing of the matter is that our lil froggy friends have their own little micro-climates. We can make their summertime occur during our winters just by adjusting the lighting and humidity. We tend to stress to newer hobbyists to keep the tanks at an optimum level of humidity at all times without regard to how it affects the frogs' biological well-being.

Or am I way off track?

Glenn, c'mon down - it's a scorcher out here in Magnolia these days ~

[frogfreak]

No, Glenn, I think an igloo is a requirement way up yonder. It's probably buried under the snow somewhere.

LOL I had too!

The thing of the matter is that our lil froggy friends have their own little micro-climates. We can make their summertime occur during our winters just by adjusting the lighting and humidity.

That can be done, but would require more hydro. I keep the frog room at 66-68F in the winter. I wouldn't want to run the AC in the summer that cold.

We tend to stress to newer hobbyists to keep the tanks at an optimum level of humidity at all times without regard to how it affects the frogs' biological well-being

Newer people worry too much about high humidity. I did too. After reading, searching, talking, I've found out that most people keep their vivs way too wet. When you go for a walk in the bush and the RH is 90% the trees aren't dripping with water are they. The leaf litter is dry. It's just humid. Cycling the frogs is something I researched too.

[guppygal]

Another question about cycling. When you decide to let your frogs have a break from breeding, how long do you go? How long can you extend the period? I'm asking because I've read where hobbyists would like to have the frogs, but either aren't prepared for breeding or simply don't want it to occur. It was mentioned that a single-sexed tank might be the way to go, but there are some frogs that just can't tolerate it, which means that they have to live alone or with a mate. I also read another hobbyist's post where his group of frogs never laid a single egg. I tried to find more info on the conditions of the tank, but I may have missed that particular post. I think this hobbyist said that the tank was a failure due to the fact that no eggs were laid. Why would that be?

Just asking, folks ~

[Philsuma]

There is no recommended downcycling time that I'm aware of. I'm sure the frogs would make use of any length break - the longer the better, to replenish caloric and nutritional loss from breeding activity.

Most all Tincs, auratus and leucomelas can be housed male sex only. Those would be recommended frogs for such an endeavor. Definetly not pumilio or thumbnails.

"Tank failure" due to no breeding ? I haven't heard that before.

Some people judge husbandry success if their charges breed but we all know that's not the case. A lot of frogs will breed in extremis - due to stress ect, and not the self promoted husbandry care of the breeder. Maybe that's what you mean ?

[guppygal]

There is no recommended downcycling time that I'm aware of. I'm sure the frogs would make use of any length break - the longer the better, to replenish caloric and nutritional loss from breeding activity.

Most all Tincs, auratus and leucomelas can be housed male sex only. Those would be recommended frogs for such an endeavor. Definetly not pumilio or thumbnails.

"Tank failure" due to no breeding ? I haven't heard that before.
I had done a little research and found this:

Aside from the possible contamination and spreading of disease, new or old, hybridization, undue aggression on various levels, the fact that even same species egg eating is very common even in larger vivs, and the fact that the only benefit to a mixed tank is the added pretty colors, I can tell you that the two times I had fairly large mixed tanks not egg one was produced. I can only see the down side to mixing. Using a zoo for a yardstick is not always a good idea. I am sure all of us have seen zoo set-ups well below par of the "hobby".

Rich

Some people judge husbandry success if their charges breed but we all know that's not the case. A lot of frogs will breed in extremis - due to stress ect, and not the self promoted husbandry care of the breeder. Maybe that's what you mean ?

I know that most of us are extremely happy when our frogs lay eggs which will eventually morph out into itty bitty frogs. This usually means that we're doing something right. But there are the very casual hobbyists who want nothing more than a beautiful vivarium with a couple of frogs - that's it. No eggs/tads/offspring. I am wondering if the humidity level and feeding schedule will cause the frogs not to breed, and if this is something that a casual hobbyist could do.

Does that make sense?