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Dart Frog "Farms", do they exist ?
#1
I've tried VERY hard to uncover evidence of ANY type of pumilio "farming operation"....

and in all the people, I've talked to - research scientists in-country, native citizens and industry people...not one single person has indicated that they have ever seen or heard of such a thing as a pumilio farming opertation, or even a "sustainable plot of land" like a cocoa plantation or large screened in facility.

There are no Farms, as far as I'm concerned.
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#2
I think the term farm is tricky. Here in the US, you can keep a single goat on your property(size relevant) and receive tax breaks and benefits and be termed a farm. The bigger the plot of land the more animals you must keep. There is also a similar law that allows the same benefits for keeping a plot of land undisturbed.

This is where I think the term is coming from. Locals set plots of land up to receive farmland deductions, then collect wild pumilio with the term farm raised all based on a technicality.
Tim
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#3
Yep. There's no doubt about it - the term "Farm" is just a cover, or a label.
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#4
As I posted on the other site:
I have spent a lot of time researching this topic (off forums) looking for hard evidence here are a few quick links I have found online that I can share. There are actual pictures of farming practices.

Pumilio Farm:
welcome
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems
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#5
Unless you know firsthand, who took those photos, then we may as well be talking about bigfoot.....I'm skeptical.

And that old chestnut of "we can't disclose the location due to bla bla"....well, again...as long as we have a respected U.S Hobbyist that can say "yep...I took those pics....I can verify.....we can't say where the Farm is exactly, but yes, I can report that it is a real operation".

Until I have that, I'm not buyin' it......
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#6
Sorry, I have been very busy lately, but I want to add a bit of a counter point, here is a good read about numbers of exports and suspensions due to productivity of species. Just search pumilio in the PDF:

http://www.cites.org/common/com/SC/57/E57-29-02A2.pdf
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems
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#7
...being that pums will find it very hard to breed stacked on top of each other in a holding cell ( I count no less than 28 pums on ONE side of a tiny stump, in what is SUPPOSED to be a breeding environment you cited Jason)
...and the fact that depositing tads in cups which are up-side-down does not work :wink:
...I'm thinking it looks like a nice holding area somewhere in the world.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#8
Sorry, I just don't see how this works in a 'breeding/farming' environment.

[Image: pumfarm2.jpg]

[Image: pumfarmtwo2.jpg]
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#9
Could they be feeding stations? It looks like there may be some sort of bait to attract bugs, and the upside-down cups would trap them.
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#10
Tony Wrote:Could they be feeding stations? It looks like there may be some sort of bait to attract bugs, and the upside-down cups would trap them.

They could be a lot of things...
Just simply show me breeding. Tads morphing... Froglets... You know, the stuff that constitutes actual breeding , as opposed to holding cell bullshite. I see tons of empty holding tubs and lots of adult frogs on top of each other. I see zero evidence to show me breeding on any level.

Show me breeding from a breeding farm in Panama please. I'm a pum breeder. I have thousands of pics of stuff I breed , at all stages...and I don't export/breed thousands of pums each year...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#11
RichFrye Wrote:I see zero evidence to show me breeding on any level.

I'm not arguing that, as far as I'm concerned the evidence all points toward "farms" being nothing more than holding facilities for WC frogs. I was just tossing out an idea on what purpose the upside-down cups may serve.
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#12
my guess is the cups are "barriers" and hides. They allow from the frogs to congregate in them and have a tiny measure of security but the main reason is that when it comes time to box em' up....they are easily collected and found inside the cups.

Those cups are a dead giveway to "Non breeding facility", IMO
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#13
Please, anyone? Pics of eggs, tads, egg-feeding, froglets, sub-adults anything?


I love pudding. How it tastes, smells, slides down the gullet. It's where the proof is, in the pudding.

I hate reading about pudding... you just lose a lot in reading about puddin'...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#14
Tony Wrote:
RichFrye Wrote:I see zero evidence to show me breeding on any level.

I'm not arguing that, as far as I'm concerned the evidence all points toward "farms" being nothing more than holding facilities for WC frogs. I was just tossing out an idea on what purpose the upside-down cups may serve.

I understand that Tony.
Yes, they are most likely for easy collection from the holding pen. It sure as hell is not for breeding purposes.
Somebody may want to pass along to the 'farm's' PR department that they need to get better pics if they want to try to fool anybody with more than a months pum/dart experience.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#15
Here's a quick question that can follow into our CB husbandry.
Do we think that dispersing food is a good thing (why you'd need to feed in the jungle, in-situ, I don't know...hmmm) , or do we think "feeding stations" are best? Is a wild animal (or CB) going to patiently wait in a queue for it's time at the feeding pile...or is this a recipe for agression and huge pecking orders?

I bring this up because of a method being spread that a feeding station is a good way to "train" your frogs to eat in one spot. Maybe catch a frog which is ailing. Well, if I'm sick or stressed the last thing I'd want is to have to fight for a meal...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#16
I don't use feeding stations, or bowls in the case of tree frogs. I am of the opinion that there are too many fat frogs in our collections, so many people have the attitude that "bigger is better" and ignore the potential negative effects of obesity. Allowing the feeders to disperse and make the frogs hunt them seems like the best method to me since it promotes natural foraging behaviors and increased activity.
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#17
It should be noted that in the photos posted by SNDF, the cups are in an upright position and filled with water. Interestingly they are the same cups (same logo and writing). Perhaps someone clued them in prior to taking those snapshots ... ?

That being said, I've never believed that these farms were anything but holding facilities.
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#18
Tony Wrote:I don't use feeding stations, or bowls in the case of tree frogs. I am of the opinion that there are too many fat frogs in our collections, so many people have the attitude that "bigger is better" and ignore the potential negative effects of obesity. Allowing the feeders to disperse and make the frogs hunt them seems like the best method to me since it promotes natural foraging behaviors and increased activity.

I agree, totally.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#19
edwardsatc Wrote:It should be noted that in the photos posted by SNDF, the cups are in an upright position and filled with water. Interestingly they are the same cups (same logo and writing). Perhaps someone clued them in prior to taking those snapshots ... ?

That being said, I've never believed that these farms were anything but holding facilities.

The real funny thing is if those cups are 'filled' or even close to filled , pums won't use 'em to any successful degree at all. Way too much open water.
Nobody with any experience with what has been going on the last 7-8 years has ever thought the pens to be anything other than just that, holding cells. There have been quite a few who own best guesses and post pics of 'farms' and such...but every time someone with zero ulterior motives down there attempts to check into these wonderful breeding factories... no bueno.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#20
Agreed.

The funny thing is that the most adamant claims that these farms do indeed exist and do indeed actually breed the animals exported comes from a well known breeder/importer who many claim as “well respected”.

Has always made me doubt the claims of site specificity from the same breeder /exporter …

Fool me once…
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