How fast should we rear a dart frog?

[Stu&Shaz]

The basic premise behind this question is how long does a given species,ok let's take this further a morph of species rear to adulthood in the wild and is there any data out there. Then should we replicate this in our rearing vivs/tubs. I have friends whom rear there frogs fairly slowly, have seen folks that report a certain frog reared to adult size and say calling very early in life . I'm trying to fathom what is best practice and how can one impliment this. Obviously in some frogs sexual maturity is reached earlier in life than others,compare a tinc or a terribilis with a rani for example.

I believe we possibly breed some frogs too early in their lives and hence they don't reach wild caught size. again tinctorious could be cited as an example. But this is slightly left field of where i'm digging.

I consider myself a novice with a bit under the belt now. shaz and I have 3 1/2 years of keeping and have reared let's say a couple or 3 frogs. ranging from dendros to oophaga,both small and large. Many frogs like say our redheads I can't find data for how long it takes for a morphling to reach adult size,in the wild. Which to me means I have no ball park to pull towards. Naturally I'm starting to formulate ideas and opinions of my own,about how I should treat a given froglet,by the same token my limited time with darts doesn't men my views are fixed,I just am starting to gain some perception of what i can do . So I'm able to feed well i've done the graft for that,sorry WE do the graft,but the question remains:

If I really grow a frog on quick,it's growth rate is fast, food virtually on tap,am I actually doing the little guy a diservice,or am I giving it what it should have?


Yup it is a very simple question,but there is depth here

take care

Stu

[Philsuma]

Or ..'how fast should we BREED our Frogs?

[Stu&Shaz]

Or ..'how fast should we BREED our Frogs?

Nah,totally not!! That's easy!!How fast,or better how MANY might be driven by market forces and one's abilitly to keep little guys fed well and with enough space,so that's easy Phil sparingly and not to the extent one has to sell tiny things because of no space or resourses.which would also be species and morph dependent.

So that answer is concientiously and absolutely not driven by the desire to make money

Nope the big picture is what i'm looking at. A debate on best practice, to breed the strongest most vigorous and the time frames to do so. IE to reach sexual maturity(plus maximum size) both in captivity and in the wild.

Have another go bro,there is a not covered debate here,I thought you especially would jump at ,if you ponder how we rear,when we are able to choose how much food to provide,not struggling to supply good food. Then should we rear them as fast as they can grow or hold back?


best

Stu

[Coqui]

Hello Stu,
That's an interesting question, however I'm thinking how much control do we have as keepers over the frogs growth besides feeding them and providing supplements. If we house the froglets in a separate viv/tub away from adults, then competition for food is less, maybe stress is also less and the froglets grow to thier full size. What is their full size? Not sure. I guess an overall average of their wild counterparts. As you said in your post the comparison is difficult because I believe we don't have any actual data of wild frogs from froglets to adults.

[Stu&Shaz]

Hello Stu,
That's an interesting question, however I'm thinking how much control do we have as keepers over the frogs growth besides feeding them and providing supplements. If we house the froglets in a separate viv/tub away from adults, then competition for food is less, maybe stress is also less and the froglets grow to thier full size. What is their full size? Not sure. I guess an overall average of their wild counterparts. As you said in your post the comparison is difficult because I believe we don't have any actual data of wild frogs from froglets to adults.

Hiya Coqui,thanks for the reply. I think your thoughts on what is full size is a great start !! I haven't found any data yet for wild growth rates, so this is part of the reasons why I wanted to open this up for discussion here.

Most frogs get pulled to rear,I suppose the most commonly reared in viv with parents might be oophaga. But again I know folks whom breed some stonking tincs in viv and they do well. I suspect the parameter for success here might be viv size. But even with oophaga some rear in viv some pull the minute they can get near a morphling,we have done both. I'm sidetracking here away from my main point slightly,because I do think stress caused by individuals,ie other kids of the same age,not just parents,might also affect growth rates. Basically I think,low density stocking of growing frogs will give faster growth rates,so straight up for me at least this is our first "area" of control. The second is quantity of food in my eyes. Now most of us realize we have a limit to food density,especially while frogs are young. I'm certain if I have too much food in the rearing viv/tub,then that will affect the young frogs. It can be a stressor that might even lead to mortality. As they get older simply keeping that density gets progressively harder. The young frogs are growing like weeds and eating far more. We had a case early this year,3 young auratus,one tub. My stocking density of feeders/microfauna specifically,ie iso and springs is always fairly high. Those 3 guys pretty much always had adlib access to food,their growth was unreal,seriously I kept checking their age as their size didn't equate to the size of frog I was looking at. So to elucidate the question further,had I got it right for once,or were they getting too much grub? When those frogs went to a new home I cleared the tub,it was rammed with food,obviously this was not at a stressor level,the frogs would not have done so well if it was, but it was high on a per square inch basis. Did I do right by them? Coqui,I think there are very fine lines on feeder density,for most larger frogs i don't think these are so easily accomplished after those first few weeks,for smaller species maybe so.

Quality of food and measuring that is difficult to assimilate, possibly we can make a given feeder more nutritional,by say gut loading . Again you have a point with supplimentation,We try to use what we feel is the best rotation,keep vits cool to give best shelf life,change at 6 months all attempts at best practice.

But the crux of this still remains ,it relates to that stocking density of micro fauna i guess. should a growing frog have all it wants would that be replicating as best we can a wild environment? Sure the diversity of food in the wild is something we can't hope to match and there is no way to replicate the fitness derived from the wild environment: the space,the predation,fight or fight and quite probably a plethera of other facets.

I'm one of those guys that believes the more i learn,the more I realize how little I actually know.

i know how to rear a dart ,yeah sure I do :wink: ,we have done it over and over, we could churn them out by the hundred ,but won't ,already covered!! We have gone there and got the T shirt for an individual reared separately to stop it breeding early in an effort to formulate a method, to try and achieve max size

ha but do I really know...............

nope haven't a bloody clue,which is my whole point

I don't want to push my frogs into extreme growth rates if it isn't the best I can do for them. Maybe by doing such i'm pushing them,in an unnatural way that might affect their life expectancy? By the same token i don't want to do the opposite either stunt them with not enough food,ha how many times do we see this.

Once again the words big picture come to mind.

Take care kiddo

Stu