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Oophaga granulifera 'Grannies" - Breeding Tips
#1
Due to the bad granny info on the Den Droboard thread from today ,I'm starting this thread by request.
I am still trying to catch up on a bunch of work this week , after being sick for a few days.
When grannies are set up correctly they can produce just as well, if not better than many pums. I'll follow this up with more breeding info later this week. But, I'll start by saying that pums and grannies are never found in the same areas . Their habitat is quite different.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#2
Thanks Rich....I was on the East Coast of C.R - for the pums mainly, but it looks like there is a small range for that species on the East coast and into the northern border of Panama - almost the Bri Bri area too. What's that population referred to as ?
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#3
Philsuma Wrote:Thanks Rich....I was on the East Coast of C.R - for the pums mainly, but it looks like there is a small range for that species on the East coast and into the northern border of Panama - almost the Bri Bri area too. What's that population referred to as ?

No problem Phil.
That population is a transplant actually. Not indigenous to that area . Back in the 1900's , if I remember correctly.
I'll try to post more tomorrow.
Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#4
I'm going to start this off by saying that I will attempt to post what is the 'norm' or average. What is the most likely to occur , not the exception to the rule. It is my contention that the hobby is greatly suffering from people arguing what is possible, not the norm or likely to occur.

I know there have been skunks in my back yard, and my poor dog Sherman does also. I know that coyotes cross highways. I know that deer have been known to walk their selves into bars out west with swinging doors...but I'm not looking for natural living and breeding habitat in my back yard, on highways or in a bar (even though I've been known to find a date in a bar , once in awhile). I even know that grannies can breed perfectly well in a 15 gallon cube with a tiny amount of pothos, leaf litter , film cans, and no direct light at all. It's not the way I set up my long term granny breeding vivs. It is the exception to the rule. This is important to understand.
So, all things equal is my mantra here.

That said, I'll start with their natural habitat and then move to captive breeding.

In the wild grannies' range starts at the most southern part of Costa Rica and spills a small bit into Panama. It extends north from there about 3/4 the way up the Costa Rican Pacific coast.

Their habitat is predominantly old forest near fast moving clean streams. They do not generally live near giant rivers. They can be found at sea level, but tend to like an elevation around 800-1200 feet above sea level.

There are generally not many broms in their habitat , rather the use of Dieffenbachia for tad rearing is more the norm. Undergrowth of plants is usually spartan . Grannies do not like 'basking' and are found in the most shaded of these areas. My connections who live and/or work in Costa Rica have told me that there are very healthy populations all along the Pacific coast .

What I have found when breeding them is that much as with all my other obligate egg feeders leaf litter is invaluable for the young. But the differences between these and Panama pumilio is notable. First, the fast moving streams tend to cool down the habitat a few degrees from that of pum habitat. Also , the benefits of cycling them up and down are great. The Costa Rican Pacific side has essentially two seasons, wet and dry. The wet season starts around May and last until about November. It may sound strange that above the equator it is much hotter in the winter than the summer, but it's real simple. When the rains stop in November the sun does not. The rains that cooled the area in the summer are no help in cooling in the winter and it actually becomes hot , dusty and dry, relatively. The grannies look for cool , dark wet areas and do not come out nearly as much as in the wet season. So, I cycle my tanks down for at least a couple months a year and at times, depending on the situation, as long as four months. During this time (I usually 'reverse' the seasons because I am more busy in the summer and it's hotter in my basement , so that's 'winter' for me here) I feed less, mist rarely and as stated the temps are a bit higher. I predominantly use film cans, tons of them, for their deposit sites. They like 'em just fine, and as I always say...cans don't die. I long ago stopped making pretty vivs. I now make vivs that seem to promote healthy frogs, long life and good breeding. Those happen to be my personal frog goals , pretty much in that order.
Grannies can handle high temps as a pum can , but they prefer a bit lower temps, all things equal. About a 5 degree difference is my guess. Proper feeding is huge. Tons of micro fauna in the leaf litter. But that's no different than any other dart, in my opinion. The one huge thing to remember, if you think your light is adequate, turn it down more. I can't tell you how many times I have got grannies to friends who never see them until they turn their lights way down. I mean way down. Off , with only ambient has startling effects at times...

Aside from the above , I will say that it is my personal experience that when you have, and start with healthy grannies they can and will breed just as well as most healthy pumilio I have worked with .

I would love to hear more personal experiences from other granny breeders. I know of only a handful of breeders who have lots of personal breeding success experience. It's always great to hear new tips. Sadly most of the guys I know who breed these beauties never post on forums of any sort. These are the guru old timers ( although not all are old at all) with a wealth of knowledge.


Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#5
Great post on a highly desirable, but little documented species.
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#6
Pics, as per Tony's request.
I would say that due to my camera's 'need' to create light for photos, the vivs will look MUCH brighter than they actually are. If there was no exposure compensation the tanks would probably be too dark to view/not even show up. All of the pictured vivs are producing as we speak.

This is a 160 gallon quepos viv. It is well over 5 feet long and has one T8 over it. It is by far my brightest breeder viv and brightest breeding granny viv. I will be changing out the fixture after a few more plant species take hold. If you look closely you will see a male just inside the door area on the left, on the back wall.
[Image: MP9O3221.jpg]



This Baru viv is a 160 under the 160 Quepos viv. It has one single CF bulb from about 8 years ago when they were the rage, not sure on the wattage equivalent. You'll notice it is in the middle of the viv. I have not once seen a granny in direct light here and often find froglets and juvis on either side , in the 'dark'. This is my best breeding granny viv by far. Produces like crazy.
[Image: MP9O3219.jpg]




A very simple quepos breeder. 29 hex with one spiral CF which is mostly drown out by the creeping fig.
[Image: MP9O3217.jpg]



A 29 tall with a breeding pair of Baru. Indirect spiral CF , half on this tank, half pointed at a neighbor Robalo breeder.
[Image: MP9O3215.jpg]

A nominant 30 gallon custom breeder. One spiral CF indirect also.
[Image: MP9O3212.jpg]



A 15 cube Quepos breeder. No direct light at all. You can see the plants leaning to crave the light. Cans, leaf litter, pothos and breeding/producing healthy offspring. I'm quite positive that if this viv had direct/high light on it there would be no breeding and no sight of the grannies.
[Image: MP9O3208.jpg]

And, last , but not ugliest, a nominant 90 gallon with one CF on the left and a very low wattage small, old aquarium light on the right .
[Image: MP9O3206.jpg]



The one thing you will notice these all have in common is tons of leaf litter and low light . Much /most in some cases, of my substrate consists of only leaf litter and broken down leaf litter. You will also notice the lack of nice plants in any but the lowest-producing , highest lit 160 Quepos viv...

I have more granny vivs (every granny pair or trio I have is breeding right now, the country has had a great three months of storms , every week...) , but some are not condusive to photos due to the need for a wider angle lens. I think these should give a good representation of my lack of want or need for lights or super exotic plants.


Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#7
Hi Rich,
Thanks for posting the pictures. Very insightful. I was also really interested in your groupings of film cannisters. Especially in the 29 hex. It looks like they are almost covered by leaves. Do they have a preference for one over the other to lay their eggs?
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#8
jckee1 Wrote:Hi Rich,
Thanks for posting the pictures. Very insightful. I was also really interested in your groupings of film cannisters. Especially in the 29 hex. It looks like they are almost covered by leaves. Do they have a preference for one over the other to lay their eggs?
Hi,

Good question. The ones (lowest) under those leaves in particular have tads in the cans right now. They love the leaf litter and the combo of areas to deposit in and the litter seems to be something they utilize all the time. I can't say if they go for one more than the other all the time, but leaves over the cans absolutely does not stop them from transporting or eggfeeding .

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#9
Hey Rich,

I like the way you have some the films cannisters banded together. I notice for the most part they are straight up and down. Do they tend to fill all the way up with water?

Also, you talked a lot about temps but didn't give any specific numbers. I'm assuming mid to high 70's. Would that be about right?

Most of your tanks look to be horizontal type tanks as opposed to vertical. Is that what the grannies prefer, more ground space as opposed to vertical space?

THANKS.
GARY
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#10
Hi Gary,

I've been zip tying the cans together for years now, it works great. I just toss them in and whatever angle they end up is how they stay. Some get filled, some have tiny amounts of water.

In the dry off-breeding season I like temps of low eighties for highs, low seventies for lows. In the rainy-breeding season mid seventies for highs, mid sixties lows.

Only the 29 hex is a true 'vert'. The others are longs or square. I prefer longs absolutely ( a must really, in my mind for trios) , but they breed fine in a well laid our hex also.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#11
Great, thanks Rich.

Those temps are pretty much what my tanks are at, they can get into the low 80's during the summer months and then during the fall/winter months they're in the low 60's to mid 70's. Plus, my tanks all have more floor space the vertical space.

Hmmm..........I may have to check your picture thread again on your grannies and get on one of your wait lists Smile
GARY
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#12
I totally agree on the low light theory, most of my pumilio are MUCH more out and about when there's no "spotlight" on them.

I'm trying to go in more of a film can/plastic shot glass direction also but can't seem to keep the water clean of ff's
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#13
The answer to pollution is dilution Chris. Tons of cans .
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#14
I don't know if this would be the appropriate thread but I was wondering if you could give some info on the different forms of granulifera. it obvious there is some diversity. Is there as much as pumilio?
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#15
jckee1 Wrote:I don't know if this would be the appropriate thread but I was wondering if you could give some info on the different forms of granulifera. it obvious there is some diversity. Is there as much as pumilio?

Here is a thread I wrote a bit back explaining a few things about granny locales.
If there is a better way to post it here without me re-writing it all again, I'm not at all opposed to it.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#16
Rich - "Typical Baru ...almost all red with small amounts of teal on feet and legs .


[Image: baru.jpg]

[Image: IMG_0523.jpg]





Typical Osa or Golfito ...usually about 50-50 red or orange backs with 100% teal legs and teal going up into the back area always.



[Image: gr1-1.jpg]

[Image: IMG_1530.jpg]




Typical Quepos... almost 100 green, often teal /blue feet , sometimes teal going up into the legs , but never to the back.



[Image: IMG_1807.jpg]

[Image: IMG_1795.jpg]

[Image: IMG_1794.jpg]


[Image: IMG_1501.jpg][/QUOTE]

What some may not understand, almost each and every population of grannies is relatively small. But, there are probably many thousands (and possibly tens of thousands) of single populations of grannies all along the west coast. Almost every small strean coming down the mountians which is at a certain evevation and has certain conditions has the chance of having it's own population of grannies. Hill after hill after hill. For hundreds of miles. So the chance of finding a small population with more this or that is almost absolute.
But the general phases start at Golfito as 50-50 blue/green bottoms and orange-red tops, then moving north progresses to mostly red tops and a little blue/green legs, and then farther north still you find green with blue toes or legs.
I have been told by a freind who lives there that there may be areas that have green one one side of a mountain with red on the other. I hope to go to Costa Rica this summer to travel with him to confirm or deny a lot of what we see written .


[QUOTE=Rich ]A few pics of Golfitos for reference.

[Image: MP9O1116.jpg]

[Image: MP9O1112.jpg]

[Image: MP9O1100.jpg]


Above authored by Richard Frye
Just a few of the Highlights
"He that is slow to believe anything and everything is of great understanding, for belief in one false principle is the beginning of all unwisdom" LaVey
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#17
Thanks for the info. Very interesting.
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#18
Utterly fascinating,great detail a wonderful insight,thankyou
Stu
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#19
Rich, have you noticed any differences or difficulties with the froglets when compared to pumilio?

Also, do you have any substrate preference for them?
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