Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

[RichFrye]

IF , IF someone can convince the natives to keep each group of frogs they are farm raising from the forest each day in separate boxes , pens, pits, whatever, AND those involved can ship, say, one days collections, from one single site, then at least the hobby will know that those frogs can be breed together. May turn out to be a selective breeding nightmare, but I see it getting no better than that at this time.

For those calling any of these new morphs by anything other than "best guess" look at my site, check out my pumilio posts, email me , whatever, but none of these things coming in as they are now are EVER going to have any sort of pedigree.

Rich

[Dane]

IF , IF someone can convince the natives to keep each group of frogs they are farm raising from the forest each day in separate boxes , pens, pits, whatever, AND those involved can ship, say, one days collections, from one single site, then at least the hobby will know that those frogs can be breed together. May turn out to be a selective breeding nightmare, but I see it getting no better than that at this time.
For those calling any of these new morphs by anything other than "best guess" look at my site, check out my pum posts, emaiul me , whatever, but none of these things coming in as they are now are EVER going to have any sort of pedigree.

Is anyone disputing this?

[RichFrye]

Haven't been reading any posts on these pums recently ???

[Dane]

Not in the past few weeks anyway.

[RichFrye]

By not being disputed , do you think my statement sums up everyone's feelings on the matter?

[Dane]

I think it sums up the educated vote.

[RichFrye]

The statement then goes out to the uneducated vote.
I'll risk the chance of it sounding obvious.

[DendroDave]

eh...some of these are starting to show up from various sources, and just being called rios and crists...etc....no disclaimer, no "best guess"

Disappointing.

[Frogtofall]

I think part of the problem probably is... So many just don't give a Sh*t.

[PGB]

Antone,

I couldn't agree more with you. Its seem that since these new imports came in people just don't care and are throwing the names right at them because they look like them...

Green pumillio being one of the main ones.

The ones coming in are very cool looking frogs but I wouldnt be breeding any of them personally.

[AceKing]

Rich, do me a favor, and give me a list of the pums in the hobby that you trust their pedigree and locale data. I know you have very strict guidelines for you collection. Very soon i will be selecting my new species of Pumilio. I cant decide which one, i know i want to stay away from current imports but i do want wild stock. I dont see how i can get around this issue without coming back to new imports.
I suppose i could get away from the wild stock idea. What CBs(pums of course) currently in the hobby meat your criteria.

I am currently designing an uber viv of my own. Any insights. something around 50-100 gallons. I want misting and draining.

[rompida]

o.k. I'll bite...

What about Bastis? We know where they are from, the island isn't that big itself (I've hiked it before). Although we wouldn't have an exact GPS coordinate for a group of frogs, we do know within a 5 mile area or so of where they would have been collected.

also, the supposed man creeks. Although we don't know exactly where they came from, its pretty safe to assume that the WC stock was collected in close proximity to each other. Why no pedigree for them?

Others, especially these so called "rio brancos" and "cristobals" of the recent imports - I totally agree with you. I foresee people unwittingly mixing the two because they look so similar. The collecters or "farmers" kind of screwed us on that count.

o.k. then, blast away...

[Roadrunner]

there is a general lack of pumilio with good collection data. even on bastimentos there are probably a couple populations that dont interbreed, especially amongst the reds. it would be optimal to have gps coordinates for all frogs collected. unfortunately that`s not the case. i am already breeding the orange body blue leg w/ brown bars morph(rios?), what are being called the chiriqui rivers, man creeks and red bastis. i am calling them man creeks and red bastis and ciriqui rivers because that is what the hobby labeled them, i did not do the research. i will, howwever, mark all my "lines" and not interbreed different importations. this is a big concern when confronting the idea of crossbreeding. if frogtracks works or people label them 06 imports after the rio barnco or better yet leave off the rio branco part(although that is the vicinity of where they were collected, not to say they werent barriered from breeding w/ the rio brancos that other people have from other imports/smuggling etc.) there can be some subdivision of "morphs". the problem comes in when there arent enough geographical barriers to describe the number of morphs in an area. such as east rb and west rb and south end of the rio branco on the west side of tributary x which is actually an island bordered on the west by tributary z. not to mention there is an all orange morph n of them and an all yellow morph s of them and these are a mixed yellow and orange morph that interbreed and form different shades etc. i know its confusing but it can occur that way in a small area. i`m not saying it does but a classification system should emerge to account for all these possibilities. we are in the infancy of the problem if they do eventually import all the possible morphs out there.

[Sports_Doc]

U did not REALLY just bump a 6 yr old thread....did you?

Now thats dumpster diving at its finest :-)

[Philsuma]

Oh but it's such a TIMELY bump though Shawn...and for good reason.....I hear you may have some really really recent site specific pumilio gettin' ready to be oogled over, for instance.

[ashb]

Putting my 2 cents in on the alleged "Salt Creeks" that are supposed to come in...

A few years ago, a phD candidate (whom I now work under in a lab) doing a sexual selection study on the Isla Bastimentos pumilio forms requested permission to study the Salt Creek locality frogs from the Salt Creek native chief. He was VERY adamant in stating that in no way may the frogs be taken from their habitat. It took a lot of convincing even more pleading until the chief finally agreed to allow the phD candidate and her affiliates to observe, photograph, and measure the frogs for academia purposes. He was very protective of the local fauna.

That being said, IF "Salt Creek" pumilio come in, they are:

A. Not true Salt Creeks and just look similar
B. Collected illegally without the Salt Creek natives' given permission
C. Originating from frog farm breeding stock collected/smuggled years ago (and thus without site data for this shipment)

My opinion on this entire shipment is that no pumilio will have any locality data whatsoever. Like Rich said, unless the natives who scampered around collecting the pumilio actually recording exact site data and map locations, there will be no data. At best, the frogs will be denoted as "Isla ____" or "Peninsula ___." If you hear from someone who allegedly knows the exact spot where these frogs originate from, go ahead and call the guys at Strictly to see if its true before you believe it.

[Philsuma]

I bet ya $100.00 it ain't choice "C"....

Yep..there's a lot of chatter, MORE than usual because I think someone, somewhere is finally getting the grande idea that these little coloured frogs are worth double to triple the $$ if someone can convince people the are from a specific location (locale).

To which I say...."Prove it to me".

[ashb]

I mean if I was a Panamanian collector who was recovering from a slow year (as far as exportations go), I'd tell the buyers whatever they'd want to hear if that much money was thrown my way.

And if I was interested in flipping frogs to pocket some extra cash, I'd certainly tell you that my frogs were captive bred and were originally collected at location X for an extra $100 a frog.

[Philsuma]

If you hear from someone who allegedly knows the exact spot where these frogs originate from, go ahead and call the guys at Strictly to see if its true before you believe it.

Wow...putting a lot of faith in Mike and Ray on this....

[ashb]

If you hear from someone who allegedly knows the exact spot where these frogs originate from, go ahead and call the guys at Strictly to see if its true before you believe it.

Wow...putting a lot of faith in Mike and Ray on this....

If your Spanish isn't rusty, call the guys who picked up the frogs themselves