Poll: Do you think dart frogs with unidentified linage should be bred/sold?
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No, these frogs should not be allowed to breed.
17.39%
4 17.39%
Yes, these frogs should be allowed to breed but only sold to responsible hobbyists.
8.70%
2 8.70%
Yes, these frogs should be allowed to breed and can be sold as long as buyers know about the unclear linage.
73.91%
17 73.91%
Total 23 vote(s) 100%
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Poll - Breeding Frogs Without Clear Linage Information
#1
Dear Dartden,

I have not made a post in quite a long time and have been very inactive in the dart frog community over the past 8-12 months. I would like to start a discussion about something I cannot seem to find any information on and hopefully it could help other froggers in the future. Here is the question....

Do you knowingly allow your frogs to breed if you do not or are unsure of the frogs linage?

If so, are you willing to sell them to other hobbyists?

This question might come quite simple to some but I am curious to hear your opinions. One may say, "If you are a responsible hobbyist you will never be in this situation". Unfortunately, this is not always absolute. I for one, and I am sure other hobbyists have fallen into a situation where a newer "frogger" just wants out of the hobby and their animals need to go somewhere. Someone has to pickup the responsibility for these animals. There are other possible scenarios I am sure but what do you do under the care of unidentified linage?

In my opinion, these frogs should not be bred or sold in an attempt to preserve proper linage. Simple as that. I've done everything possible to track down the original breeders and linage but cannot resolve.

What do you guys/gals think?

Some thoughts,

-Kevin


PS - Sorry Phil, this might fall better under the breeding section. Feel free to move, I just wanted to hear some discussion on this not so talked about subject.
Azureus - Imitators "Cainarachi Valley" - Leucomelas - Black Jeans
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#2
Welcome home Kevin! No worries on the thread placement. We have a huge and complex programe designed to move threads in just such an eventuality as this!

This thread actually belongs in the "Polls' subforum. A forum and feature that I'm really proud that we have here on DD - not found anywhere else. All the polls in one easy to find place.
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#3
Hey hey, thanks for the welcoming!

I'm glad to see some polls but no ones sharing their reasoning? Does anyone have any opinions on the matter? I'm just looking for a little discussion on the topic.

Hypothetically speaking, if one breeder breeds "mystery line" frogs and sells them to another frogger who then sells them to another frogger..ect..ect.... wouldn't the chances of these frogs mixing with other lines increase? Furthermore, polluting specific lines?

Looking at the big picture... After the above multiplies significant times wouldn't there be a whole population of mystery frogs?

I'm just expressing some thoughts and I would very much like to hear what you all think so please share! Oh and your allowed to change your vote in this pole at anytime.
Azureus - Imitators "Cainarachi Valley" - Leucomelas - Black Jeans
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#4
I think your timing coincides with the 'Wascher experiment' with willy-nilly frog production, leading many to believe in mixed and non-lineage animals. Supposedly @ 5-6 thousand frogs, if they are to be believed.

There needs to be '2 tiers' of frogs IMO.

1. The easy to breed and common stuff that should flood the market and pet stores and reptile shows.

2. The uncommon or rare stuff - the hard to breed and raise stuff like obligates.

NOT giving the common stuff a 'pass' but if that stuff goes to little timmy or johnny as an impulse buy and it dies yada yada...well you get the idea there. No experienced hobbyists are going to be fooled or take some sketchy animals, so no worries here.

The harder to get stuff / hard to breed stuff, NEEDS to be shepherded and protected.

2 different paths here, in a nutshell.
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#5
Here's a similar poll:

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=4420
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#6
Hey thanks for the opinion Phil.

I totally get what your saying the "common" or petstore frogs.

Thanks for sharing!
Azureus - Imitators "Cainarachi Valley" - Leucomelas - Black Jeans
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#7
My opinions mirror Phils. I fall back on the cichlid hobby analogy where I spent a good amount of time. There you have two types of hobbyists - hard core hobbyists that track locale and F# generations, and enthusiasts that are cool with pulling from the mixed mbuna tank at a chain pet store - they'd think you were nuts if you overnighted a box of little brown fish cross country while I would think you're nuts pulling a fish that looks like a crabro from a community tank marked "assorted cichlids". Both derive enjoyment from the hobby, but with different levels of investment.

No one can control who breeds what, so the DFW's of the world will happen. We'll have to rely on a subset of the hobby that is built on relationships and trust to maintain solid locale data where available and lineages. And that is OK by me.

It's a shame that people don't recognize these little frogs can outlive a typical dog or cat and they need to plan accordingly. There's probably a good sticky somewhere in here with methods for discouraging breeding while maintaining a healthy frog that can help the transient hobbyist ensure they are not stuck with unwanted or hard to move offspring.
Jim from Austin --- Lorenzo keepers PM me about a US breeding program
lorenzo | nominant fants | highlands | summersi | bakhuis | azureus

http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs
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#8
I don't think realistically you would ever be able to stop non lineage breeding. It is a problem with every animal that is bred. I do believe though that those who are serious about breeding higher quality should stick with those that they know the lineage of course you would have to know and trust your source to not make up a lineage which can sometimes be as equally difficult as finding good lineage. I believe people should be able to know what they are buying and if they are just buying their frogs for the joy of having them that is different then with then having the idea of breeding. Also I believe only keeping breeding animals with a lineage has its own befits by making one a more reputable breeder and possible being able to sell higher quality frogs at higher prices. Plus the pride you can take in your work of keeping a strong strain 'pure'.
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