Poll -Is keeping frogs in "glass boxes" - Conservation ?

[Philsuma]

Is the Keeping of frogs in "glass boxes" - in any way shape or form to be considered a Conservation effort ?

Traditional or not....can we say that the private hobby keeping of these animals has any...any at all...however small or slight, conservation effort or value ?

Gonna keep this little survey / poll / social test to a simple yes or no....

[JJuchems]

I prefer acyclic, but that is beyond what I can afford.

[Philsuma]

Jim O had a great post about hobby = conservation.

We will see if he adds to this thread here.

[Venutus1]

i voted "no".
However...I would like to think we are.

But seriously, does anyone think there will be any habitat left to re-introduce them into in 40 or 50 years?

Or am I being too pessimistic?

Would we be better off freezing some to clone off from?

Because by them they will be so inbred anyway? hock:
(inbred that is without the benefit of natural selection that takes place in the wild environment to cull and refine the species.... for those that claim amphibians are resistant to inbreeding.)

Just tossing out some random thoughts.
Cheers,
Todd

[Philsuma]

Todd,

You still thinking "inside the glass box". heh

Think OUTSIDE the box...if hobby efforts can help, in terms of conservation.

[Venutus1]

Todd,

You still thinking "inside the glass box". heh

Think OUTSIDE the box...if hobby efforts can help, in terms of conservation.

i know, sorry Phil....
20 lashes for todd.
i must be feeling instigative today. :twisted:
instigative. is that a word?
LOL

[Michael Lawrence]

I say to on the grounds that if you are properly managing and tracking unrelated lines of a certain species or locale and breeding them to ensure they are here long after they go extinct in the wild it is a degree of conservation. Breeders who are just mass producing frogs without a care of whats related to what and who care less about the proper management of whats here i say not.

As for reintro its not really a valid theory unless you are farming them on scene feeding them a natural locale food supply as well as keeping it hands off for the most part. They need to be pinned in within their own region and let do their thing whether grouped, paired or you name it but it cant be done here. Too many risks.

As for inbreeding and all that mess its like I said proper management of whats here. I always here people talking about what they want to bring in next or hope on what comes in soon but without a plan its just taking from the wild to further the fad on the new frog here and promote smuggling and taking more out of the wild.

There is no reason why the hobby couldn't be the forefront on keeping and managing all these darts as they go extinct in the wild. Fact is we outnumber the zoos and institutions and we don't rely on others to feed out frogs. We are well equipped for it if its done right.

Michael

[cbreon]

I think the the hobby offers some potential conservationist qulaities and benefits but I think it can also be harmful to wild populations. The hobby could produce some potentially viable populations for reintroduction but at the same time it drives some of the exports (legal and illegal) that harm or decimate wild poluations. Another point would be that some of the origins of the morphs we are working with are more well known than others. So, upon any theoretical reintroduction would we potentially harm the purity of any gene pool of existing morph's in the area of reintroduction. Along those same lines, some of the morphs stem from much smaller imports potentially leading to genetically limited breeding populations within the hobby. So, would reintroduction of such populations be capable of surviving in the wild (i.e. hunting, parasite/disease resistance, etc...) . These aren't neccessarily my opinions, but just some food for thought .

[Philsuma]

Based on what hoops and barriers I've seen with institutional efforts aimed at re-introduction, I'm fairly certain all Captive born hobby efforts have a 0% chance or morphing into any sort of re-population plan.

But...

I know for a fact, that written papers and documented hobby initiatives like husbandry and breeding breakthroughs are recognized by Academia and government entities.

There is still one OTHER issue that springs forth directly from keeping and housing private animals and collections that no one has yet to post....

[Michael Lawrence]

Reintro will not happen unless its done at ground zero of the problem and even then Im betting it will need to be protected lands not endangered of habitat loss and free from unregulated collecting. You cant just reintroduce any frog.

Michael

[Philsuma]

Correct.

It's only natural to think "Noah's Ark" though....that usually comes to mind first, in any conservation dream.

[cbreon]

Well, I guess I would be willing to head up the Noah's Ark effort for obligates. I am willing to take your donations, frogs, tanks, and food. I guess I would take cash too. PM or email me with your offers. I just need one pair of each obligate morph. :lol:

[Philsuma]

You had me until you mentioned "donations".

That's smacks of that Save the Frogs organization....which runs counter to this thread btw. And scares me hock:

[JJuchems]

As for reintro its not really a valid theory unless you are farming them on scene feeding them a natural locale food supply as well as keeping it hands off for the most part. They need to be pinned in within their own region and let do their thing whether grouped, paired or you name it but it cant be done here. Too many risks.

There is no reason why the hobby couldn't be the forefront on keeping and managing all these darts as they go extinct in the wild. Fact is we outnumber the zoos and institutions and we don't rely on others to feed out frogs. We are well equipped for it if its done right.

Michael

Reintroductions: Interesting thoughts but chelonia reintroductions are occurring and working without food supply and being hands off (and disregard to locale.)These are animals that need water quality and sight feed. I know we are looking at two different groups of herps. Can you point to any amphibian reintroductions that fits your stated requirements?

I think soon a greater partnerships and simply a partnership between institutions and private organizations will be forming to help support amphibian conservation. At its root an institution or organization can focus on one genus to divide the labor. Institutions and organizing bodies are having these conservations.

[JJuchems]

Based on what hoops and barriers I've seen with institutional efforts aimed at re-introduction, I'm fairly certain all Captive born hobby efforts have a 0% chance or morphing into any sort of re-population plan.

I disagree, again I know not the same as amphibians. Illinois Alligator Snapping Turtle reintroduction are coming from hobbyist. Turtles are also being purchased from Asian food markets due to limited supply to be bred for reintroduction.

[frogfreak]

Based on what hoops and barriers I've seen with institutional efforts aimed at re-introduction, I'm fairly certain all Captive born hobby efforts have a 0% chance or morphing into any sort of re-population plan.

I know a lot of people agree that there's no way captive bred would even be considered for re-introduction, but I think if push came to shove it could happen. IF darts were wiped out, you betcha, at some point in time they would try and re-introduce them out of desperation. Maybe not frogs, but eggs or tads from our captive bred is possible IMO. There's not a chance in hell unless it's a desperation attempt to restock.

[afterdark]

Every single person who has ever come to my house and seen the frogs has raved about how 'cool' they are...and while they're all excited I've got a captive audience to push a little conservation talk on 'em.

[JJuchems]

The major point is, it is what you do with your box. If you are just keeping, hobby keeping, than no. I don't see a lot of managed breeding in the hobby sector. The post on the other forum about it being bad business that sponsors are "out of stock" of frogs. The concept of perpetual breeding to meet demand only hurts the hobby and adds more "python breeders" to the ranks who are looking for quick cash. That is what I have seen from the majority of the hobby.

If you are are doing: Managed Breeding, Programs, Research than yes. Interpretive programs have shown to have (depending on the research you read) 60-70% higher retainment of information than reading a sign. Manged breeding encompasses many of the aspect Michael included to sustain the locale/species. And of course research to further knowledge and data base.

[Philsuma]

Every single person who has ever come to my house and seen the frogs has raved about how 'cool' they are...and while they're all excited I've got a captive audience to push a little conservation talk on 'em.

..gettin' close.....

[Michael Lawrence]

As for reintro its not really a valid theory unless you are farming them on scene feeding them a natural locale food supply as well as keeping it hands off for the most part. They need to be pinned in within their own region and let do their thing whether grouped, paired or you name it but it cant be done here. Too many risks.

There is no reason why the hobby couldn't be the forefront on keeping and managing all these darts as they go extinct in the wild. Fact is we outnumber the zoos and institutions and we don't rely on others to feed out frogs. We are well equipped for it if its done right.

Michael

Reintroductions: Interesting thoughts but chelonia reintroductions are occurring and working without food supply and being hands off (and disregard to locale.)These are animals that need water quality and sight feed. I know we are looking at two different groups of herps. Can you point to any amphibian reintroductions that fits your stated requirements?

I think soon a greater partnerships and simply a partnership between institutions and private organizations will be forming to help support amphibian conservation. At its root an institution or organization can focus on one genus to divide the labor. Institutions and organizing bodies are having these conservations.

Jason Im the last to be the chooser of what project is fit for this. I do know if I had to pick a ground zero project to start a farm based on 100% non profit reintro it would be St Lamasi. While I know we have discussed this one in the past I believe over collecting and smuggling played the biggest role in their demise. They will be gone soon from the wild that we all know. As for chelonia Im not informed enough to be able to respond to that. I dont think without a valid level of proof on our worth the institutions and zoos will never look at us an a possible help to anything truely considered conservation or expert associated.