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RETF housed with Dart Frogs
#1
Hi, all!
My wife and I are new to vivariums and Poison Dart Frogs…some-what. I say some what simply because we did extensive of research before we built-up our viv and got our PDF’s and Red Eyed Tree Frogs. Some would bash us for having two different species in the same viv, but we’ve had no issues, and there is and has been no interaction between the two, one being nocturnal and top of the foliage and the other being terrestrial and day-timers. Things have been working out great.

However, I am here to learn as much as I can from those that have been doing it for years. If you don’t agree with mixing of species, as we have done…sorry, both species are thriving. Thanks,

Rodney
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#2
Hi Rodney,

Welcome.
Exactly how long have you had this set-up, what do you consider "thriving", and what testing have you done to prove the health of these frogs?
Also, please tell me the benefits to the frogs with regards to mixing.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#3
As it is, they’re both exhibiting good eating habits (other then having a hard time staying in pinheads, do to a dwindling supply from local stores…which I just ordered ff cultures to switch to). Both species exhibit good levels of activity during their awake times (RETF’s at night and PDF’s during the day) and both species exhibit good coloration, and they have grown very well sense we got them as babies, three months ago.

And as for benefits, like I said, I’m here to learn from your experience, as we got all of our frogs before we heard anything about, or had ever been advised against intermingling different species. The only warning we ever got before this board was someone telling us to keep close to the same sizes and go daytime frogs and night time frogs and stay away from frogs/toads that will eat things that are the same size as them or bigger (e.g. Pixi’s and so on). We were never told “Don’t do it!” or “I advise against it” until I looked on this forum…today. However, if you are trying to line me up for a tong lashing for intermingling two different species…how is that helping me learn about proper care for my herps? Since I’ve been reading this forum, I’ve been considering buying a new tanks and starting up a second environment to split the tow, but I’ve seen nothing in the last three month to warrant it.

The one thing that I know for a fact was a mistake was buying three Tinc’s instead of just two…as LLL Reptile’s sale was for three…I should of blew off the sale and only got two. One of my tincs isn't playing well with the other two,and is seperated out for the time being.

Now, I’m all ears as to why RETF’s and PFD’s can’t be in the same large environment.
Smile
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#4
Rodney,
There are tons of good threads to explain why mixing is a huge no-no. I think I wrote one a year or so ago here. Search under "mixing" and stuff should pop up. There is zero benefits to the frogs with many potential down-sides to mixing.
Three months is zero time to tell if your frogs are indeed doing Ok, much less thriving. No mention of testing so I will assume there has been none. this is also something to do a search on.
No tongue lashing, I just don't like seeing frogs thrown into an environment where proper research was not done before a sale purchase. You repeatedly use the term "thriving" when you have no scientific proof of this. Some newbies will look to this as an excuse to mix also.
Good luck with the frogs,
Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#5
Well, thanks...you have such a nice way of making a person feel stupid. :oops: I'll seperate the species.

Rodney
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#6
Rodney,
Sorry if you feel stupid. That was most certainly not my intention.
There is a huge difference between stupid and ignorant. You are simply ignorant of some facts. It makes me wonder why , when most all experts say don't mix, and you say you "did extensive of research" you still decided to do one of the major no-nos, with your very first darts. And then after a few months say it is a success.
There are tons of good posts here on topics such as "mixing", quarantine, testing your darts, and the like . These frogs can be more fragile than other herps and a lot of reading is needed to make sure the very best environment for them is given.
Again,
Good luck with your frogs.
Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#7
I am still quite new to the frog keeping hobby but I can tell you that getting your frogs poop tested for parasites is a HUGE benefit to your frogs. The gentleman who is suggesting fecals on your frogs is someone who would know best. His brother is the veterinarian who could preform these fecals. Dr. David Frye. He is very experienced in the health and care of poison dart frogs and has helped me on several occassions with fecals on my frogs, treatment for the parasites and also treatment on a frog who became ill after several months of looking completely healthy.

Separating the two different species will be beneficial to your frogs first of all but to you later on. I have done a ton of research on RETF as I am interested in owning some later on and I have read on many different sites that adults will eat whatever they can fit in their mouths and that includes poison dart frogs.

I am a hard headed individual and I get totally impatient and want things NOW without considering the consequences but it was people like Rich Frye who got through to me through his posts on this and other forums that made me slow down and do research before I set up a viv and purchased my first darts. I absolutely planned on having " different color frogs" before I started reading this forum. I do not know this person personally but I have read through his posts and advise that he truly cares about the frogs well being and the well being of the hobby.

Good luck to you and enjoy the frogs.
Candy
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#8
Thanks...rub salt in the wound. Do you wish to continue? Do you have more to say to make me feel any smaller? If you feel the need to kick me any harder, please by all means.

Rodney
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#9
WHOA! Chill out dude. THis is not a personal attack.
Candy
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#10
Stomp, boot, stomp! Had enough yet?

Welcome into the Forum!

Now that your in and have heard the opinion of at least one very experienced member(s) who's advice we all take to heart, sounds like your ready to set things up proper.

How about not taking it so hard when people are replying to such a hot topic as the one you posted. Could you please just show us what you've done for your already created viv and your temporary housing for the frogs you've removed from the tank? Let us see your creative endeavors please?
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#11
divingne1 Wrote:WHOA! Chill out dude. THis is not a personal attack.
Candy

My apologies, I wasn't speaking to you. I already "saw the light" when it comes to separating species...I didn't need any more coaxing.

Think about it this way...you learn that you are doing something wrong, at first you try and defend it...then when you come to terms with it...that what you were doing was wrong, so you apologize, and turn 180-out to fix yourself...the issue at that point should be dead. The annoyance, is when you have that one guy that feels he needs to add an extra two cents...that just makes the person feel more guilty. I already feel bad enough about this issue.

If he feels so passionate about the issue...he should write a long point paper, to include a listing all the experimentation that has been done to prove his point...not just discussions that have happened on this or other message boards. I'm not trying to say that he's wrong...I've grown to support and even defend his claim.

Now, After this discussion got started, I turned and started really looking into finding information on mixing species in the same viv...but all I seem to find is opinion driven messages on different forums. When it comes to the possibility of mix breeding subspecies of PDF's - This is something that I understand, as a Bird Person (We have two parrots and very active in the parrot community)...we don't like subspecies of Macaws being mixed together to maintain the original sub's like Blue and Gold Macaws, Scarlet Macaws, and Green wing Macaws...as it is A Green wing and a Blue and Gold mixed together you get a Harlequin Macaw, that could contaminate the population of Blue and Gold’s, because it looks to close to the original subspecies. However, Bird owners will never say, "Don't keep more then one species in your house, because the stress it adds to the birds." Now, we have to ask ourselves, do the cross-breeding happen in the wild? For Macaws, some do happen in the wild, example: Blue and Gold's and Scarlet's...this does happen in the wild...Blue and Gold’s and Green wings doesn't happen in the wild. So, along those same lines of thought, are there instances where two different subspecies of PDF's cross-breed in the wild? Has this even been studied as it has with Macaws? I do understand this is apples and oranges...but stress causes illness in birds as well, and believe me, birds get very territorial. I know...apples and oranges, but, birds require a controlled amount of good stressors’, or boredom sets in and bad stress begins which leads to feather plucking, screaming, biting, and several possible illnesses and psychosis’s.

Now...I'm going to be spending another $700-$800 to set-up a second viv for my PDF's. I think that should show how much I support the issue. Can you back off now?
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#12
And yes, I'll post picture of our viv and temp housing soon.
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#13
Maybe I am missing something but I just don't see were anyone has been inappropriate or rude or in any other way trying to make you feel small or stupid or rub anything in your face. Maybe because I am not on the receiving end of this I can see it with clearer vision. I think that everyone is just trying to make sure that the point is made because the over whelming majority of people that ask about mixing and get told no it is not a good idea still want to argue and fight back hoping that one person will chime in and say it is ok so that then the poster will feel like it IS ok to go ahead and mix against all the other advise that was given. I don't see that in you but when it happens so many times people become defensive right off the bat. I am very new to frogs and I don't even have any yet and as much as I would love to have a mixed tank (wouldn't we all Tongue ) I have definitely decided to not even attempt it. I have done enough research to see that people's experience is 99% of the time not good when mixing was attempted. Not to say it can't be done with success but that usually involves very experienced froggers and very large enclosures, much bigger than my little 75g vivarium I am building.
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#14
Nubster, You just did exactly what I was talking about.

Nubster Wrote:Maybe I am missing something but I just don't see were anyone has been inappropriate or rude or in any other way trying to make you feel small or stupid or rub anything in your face. Maybe because I am not on the receiving end of this I can see it with clearer vision. I think that everyone is just trying to make sure that the point is made because the over whelming majority of people that ask about mixing and get told no it is not a good idea still want to argue and fight back hoping that one person will chime in and say it is ok so that then the poster will feel like it IS ok to go ahead and mix against all the other advise that was given. I don't see that in you but when it happens so many times people become defensive right off the bat. I am very new to frogs and I don't even have any yet and as much as I would love to have a mixed tank (wouldn't we all Tongue ) I have definitely decided to not even attempt it. I have done enough research to see that people's experience is 99% of the time not good when mixing was attempted. Not to say it can't be done with success but that usually involves very experienced froggers and very large enclosures, much bigger than my little 75g vivarium I am building.
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#15
Yeah, well, get over it.
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#16
My apologies, I wasn't speaking to you. I already "saw the light" when it comes to separating species...I didn't need any more coaxing".

It would seem , though, that your way of "seeing the light" is to cry that I am making you feel stupid. Well, if you feel stupid, once again, I am sorry. But you are in-fact very ignorant (again, VERY different than stupid) to facts about darts. Facts that have fact driven statements, if you just take the time to dig a bit. You either did not read enough before you bought your frogs or you chose to ignore many of the facts that are suggested (or plain out told) to newbies and those that have been in the hobby for years and years. If the facts hurt your feelings then do something to change those facts and don't expect us to hold your hand because we don't agree with your actions or sentiments. You are correct when you say you don't need coaxing, you need education. Many of us have already written hundreds , if not thousands, of informative posts that are very accessible by the search function.

No, think of it this way. You were told that you were doing something wrong and then came back and told us that you were never "told" by anybody that you should not mix. But in your opening post you say that you know "some would bash us for having two different species" so you were in-fact "told" not to do this. I am missing something here?? Also, please tell me where you apologize anywhere in the thread (other than to Kristi, who you say you were not speaking Confusedhock: ). I doubt you feel bad for the frogs , but I am sure you feel bad on some level about your actions. Or you would not feel stupid. My thoughts are not two cents , but a culmination of years of breeding and raising absolutely nothing but poison dart frogs. Period.

Been there, done it , written it, proven it, many, many ,many, many times. Just search and you will find.

Two problems here. One is that you started "looking after" you got your first frogs, and two is that you have not searched enough. You will find tons of facts. I'll indulge you here and quickly post the same info I have been writing for the past five or so years , just for you.

Mixing facts:
Two species can cross contaminate each other unless both are proven to be totally "clean". Clean being free of parasites, viruses, bacterial infections, and a host of other issues. If you have not tested your frogs, and I tend to think you have not (please tell me if I am wrong here) you have no way of telling if one species has now given a death sentence to the other species.

Breeding is almost always effected in at least a minimal way and sometime shut off totally. Many of these frogs will be extinct in our lifetime and we are responsible to breed these frogs in captivity . Much of this comes down to responsibility.
There is absolutely zero benefit to the frogs to having other species in the same tank. None. Nobody has yet to come up with one.

Stress while at times is very evident, at others it is a creeping menace that when identified, at times, can be too late for the frog's health. When frogs are contaminated with certain parasites , the parasites do little harm until the frogs are stressed. The combination of stress and parasites can be a huge factor as opposed to a single factor such as one or the other. In other words, if you have a frog with parasites, that frog may live just fine with them until the frog is stressed . And the stress, because of the parasites, need only be a fraction of what it would need to be in a "clean' frog to do damage that may otherwise be treatable or curable.

While it is not an issue with your frogs, there are a number of species of darts that will hybridize and this is a huge, huge no-no in our hobby.

That should start things off on a factual, proven tack.

The simple answer is yes, different species, not even sub-species, of darts will hybridize. Much fact has been written on this also.

I doubt that anyone wants you to spend $700-$800 on a new viv. Not sure how big you are going , but I can set one up for quite a bit less than that.

As far as the "backing off" , I think that someone here needs to take a look in the mirror, answer my questions, such as did you quarantine your frogs and test ? Two big, big, much written about topics. And then maybe you will understand that it is not our intention to hurt your fragile feelings. It is our intention to point out that there is more than enough easily accessible information out there to start out on a better foot than you have. If in-fact you did not quarantine, test , and correct any health issues with your frogs (and please don't tell me that you can guess at the health of your frogs by watching them eat and grow) then there are two, quarantine and not mixing, issues you need to address. At the very least. If you don't want to hear hard facts such as quarantine good and mixing bad, I suggest doing a lot more reading instead of bragging about how your three month old mixed species tank is thriving where others' have found this to be less than factual.

If you feel the need to debate in a scientific , factual way , I am your man. If your feelings are easily trampled when facts about your set-up and husbandry practises arise then I suggest we end this thread here and now.

To anybody else out there that does not understand my need to step in where I see issues, these are not impulse buy animals. Nor are they pets. Nor do these animals have short lifespans. Some can live over thirty years. They are a commitment and need to be taken care of in the best possible way from the very start. I absolutely know I can come off as harsh and rude at times. But the simple fact is I really get a bit (more actually) aggravated when I read of someone who is doing something that has absolutely been proven to be non-beneficial to their animals. Be they cat dog or frog. The issue of saying they did extensive research when in-fact they have not is another issue in and of itself.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#17
Oh, and if anyone can spot , the probably obvious, issue with why my quotes and such did not work, shoot. Big Grin
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Like Reply
#18
MattySF, Thank you for welcoming me to the forum, and yes, I’m ready to get the advice I need to set things up properly…Please help me get things correct. I’ll submit photos to show you where I am with my viv. I’m stopping on my way home tonight from work to pick-up a temp home for my PDF’s…as setting up a full blown second viv this week would be a bad idea…we’re redoing the floors in our house this week…and the little boy that we were supposed to adopt has been diagnosed with a couple serious psychoses and will no longer be able to be adopted by anyone (He's been living with us for a month and a half now). He’s being sent to a therapeutic group home this week. I’ve been under some stress myself…over bigger things then PDF’s. So, I apologize for being snippy, no one here deserves it.

Now, thank you for correcting me. I’ll be separating my frogs. If you all wish to continue, go ahead...but I'm out and will no longer be posting or reading any post that discusses or argues semantics. You now have the full attention of a person that is calm and has an open mind and willing to listen and learn what to do with the Darts that I have.

RichFrye, I apologize for upsetting you…you didn’t deserve my moodiness.
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#19
Rodney, Rich.......you too MattySF............come on y'all
*group hug*

Ok, now we're feelin the love!


Rodney we'll get you through this. you made a mistake, you owned up to it..... your willing to try to correct it.
Nuff said.
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#20
Yes , hugs all around. I don't mean to make you feel bad Rodney and can relate to the moodiness.

Back to us learning. An FAQ relating to the darts themselves (I read your post on that Rodney) may be a good idea here. Most forums have them.

In the meantime the search function is what we have to deal with. There really is no better experience than just taking a bit of time ever day and read up on topics that pop up time and again.

Off the top of my head a few would be:

Viv size/how many can I put in , food stuffs and culturing, quarantine, the mixing threads, testing, breeding, handling darts and temps. Much more should be checked into , but those are just a few things to look up. I know darts and not many other frogs or amphibians. But I have been told that these frogs are generally more fragile and difficult to keep in top condition so the extra study really pays off.


Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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