Starter frog?

[ToadWort]

I asked my wife to help with what pair of frogs to start with and she likes Ranitomeyer Imitator. So, I started researching it. I'm getting mixed information though. Who has them and what's your thoughts?

[srod]

I just got some imitator veradero.. I really like how these frogs look. They are my first frog I would recommend not getting a thumbnail as a starter unless you absolutely love them. I love mine but the down fall is they are so small about an inch max. They aren't that bold at least mine aren't at the moment cause I've only had them for about a week. I barely seem them because of their size and they hide so easy. I would recommend a larger frog that is terrestrial not an arboreal species to begin with. You will see them more often. Which is why we get frogs in the first place. I hope this helps. Their maintenance is simple the same as all the other frogs I believe.

[ToadWort]

It's a great help. I think my wife was going for cuteness and color factor lol. I'll have to look for something that has a close look, I too like the color. I think a larger frog would be best as well. What I'm aiming for is to find the pair I want first ad but my viv around them. Guess I will continue my research, thanks again.

[srod]

No problem .... I like the veradero color aswell but I've been told they become bolder when they are older.... especially when they pair off I have 3 and ironically I see the tiniest one most often. Mine are still young i see all they of them only when they are hungry and all hunting.

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[ToadWort]

I am confused about the mixing of frogs. For example, if you go to some web sites there are "suggested" frogs that are said to be good for beginners and are good for mixing, but most the research I have read tells me "not" to mix. So, is this simply a marketing deal to sell more, or is there "some" truth in it? I have seen lots of beginners ask the question about mixing frogs and there seems to be overwhelming agreement by those who have been in the hobby for years, not to mix and yet there are business(s), that encourage it. After my own research, I tend to fall in line with not mixing, but that being said, is there an ethical issue in regards to selling and giving sound advice? Most beginners would, in my opinion, rely on a business for information instead of researching. Because I'm a historian, I am infected with a research gene lol, so I enjoy it, but nevertheless, I'm perplexed by the two notions.

[Philsuma]

What websites are you finding that advocate mixing species ?

The BIG problem is 'little frog / big frog'.

These animals are MUCH more aggressive and capable of stress than most people realize.

ONE of the issues is that it is almost inevitable that the bigger frogs will pick on the small frogs, or outcompete them for food, cause stress leading to death, ect.

Just like your quest for your first frog and the great advice you got from a fellow newbie - Small frogs are more delicate and new hobbyists are less likely to notice stress and poor feeding, thin-ness ect and they die....quicker than a larger stockier animal.

[srod]

Your best bet is to find a breeder. And not mixing frogs seems to be rule of thumb.. for preventing hybridization . . It keeps the genetic line pure . I've heard of people mixing and arboreal species with a terrestrial species in a large tank and they usually stay away from each other. But I wouldn't recommend it.

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[srod]

Yes it is most likely a marketing tool

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[ToadWort]

Unless I'm misunderstanding the context, here is one of the examples I've seen.
http://www.joshsfrogs.com/frogs-for-sal ... frogs.html

Granted, as someone new to the hobby with "no" frogs yet, I could be misinterpreting it, but conversely, as someone new and with "no" frog(s), I would more than likely interpret it as...yes, these frog(s) are okay to put together. So, unless someone is willing to put the time in and research and ask questions, can you see how a new person to the hobby might read it? Also, some people are intimated to ask question's in fear of sounding silly.

[hun73r]

When Josh is advertising "group frogs" he means that those frogs do OK in groups larger than a pair of the same type. Like 4-6 frogs and not that the ones in that category do well mixed together. Some frogs do well in communal groups and some do not and will stress others to death.

[Philsuma]

Same species = ok for groups

Different species / different 'population' or color or morph or nom de' jour = Not good to have in same enclosure IMO

Groups of SAME species, similar size are ok.

Three Tinctorius at a sexual ratio of 2.1 or 2 males and 1 female = fine to have in most cases

5-6 Phyllobates vitattus is ok in group

[ToadWort]

I'm glad you could clear that up and it makes perfect since to me the way you explained it. But, I hope you can also understand how someone new (like me), might misunderstand. Thanks again for clearing that up.

[ToadWort]

I'm happy to say that the wife and I came to a nice compromise after we decided thumbnail frogs would not be good to start for us. I wanted blue frogs and she wanted yellow frogs, so we're going with the Dendrobates tinctorius 'French Guiana Dwarf Cobalt'. Already starting research, this thread has been very helpful.

[joneill809]

I started with tincs (azureus) and stuck with them. They are a fun bold frog that can use all parts of a well scaped viv. In terms of the "cuteness" factor, you could consider bakhuis. They are my wife's favorite because of how tiny they are for a tinc (~40 mm SVL). They can eat melanogaster or hydei. They were more shy than my bigger tincs but after a year you can regularly see them out and about. But I'm a biased tinc keeper...

Edit
Oops I see you beat me to it!

[hun73r]

Really good choice and it is easy to see how the mixing question gets confused. Probably one of the most discussed topics in the hobby.


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[DianeCarter]

Randall, While reading this thread, I was going to recommend cobalts! Then I saw that you and your wife compromised on dwarf cobalts...good choice!
I have cobalts, a group of 3 I've had for about 1.5 years. They are tincs, so they are bold, out and about. They are absolutely GORGEOUS, very bright and colorful! They just started laying for me, 3 clutches that haven't made it yet, but that's OK , I don't expect the first several clutches to make it!
I think you and your wife will be happy with them, mine are blue, black, yellow, and a bit of green. They are bold, not shy at all, and they are characters!
They are also full of surprises. Once they reached maturity, I was just sure I had a 1.2. (1 male, 2 females) Just a few weeks ago, after a couple of clutches of eggs, I realized they were a 2.1 (2 males, 1 female). I finally saw my "2nd female" calling, and courting my female!!! So I have seen my female courting, and presumably laying clutches, with both males!! Very cool!

Good luck, and enjoy!

Diane

[DianeCarter]

As a sidenote, I have had my R. Imitators for almost 2 years, and they have been my most prolific breeders! And I regularly see them.
I think I have probably enjoyed them the most, of all the several breeds I have. I see them enough (not a LOT), but since they are non-obligates, I have watched them transport, and watched them feed the tads, watched the tads grow and mature, and watched the tads morph out into froglets. This has been the most wonderful part of my 2 year journey with my pdfs!!!
Diane

[ToadWort]

Great info, thanks once again . So when you breed these little frogs, do you sell them? I bet it sounds like a funny question, but honestly I hadn't thought about that part of it. Granted, I have a long way to go, but I to keep this in mind too.

[joneill809]

Yes, it is common for hobbyists to trade or sell offspring, often on the forums or at local meets. There's a forum that you've probably already seen for posting available animals:
viewforum.php?f=17

And another forum for people to post positive and negative feedback on transactions:
viewforum.php?f=25

Research who you are buying from and ask about the history of the line the person is offering. Quality breeders will be transparent with the history of their frogs and typically maintain "line" information. If someone cannot [or will not] tell you about the history of the animals then move on. You can't get a true frogger to shut up about their animals - they just go on and on and on .... So my advice in general (but especially if you intend to breed) is these animals can live for more than 20 years, so be picky about who you buy from - you can find a lot of information on the feedback forum here at DartDen. Here's a discussion on "where to buy frogs" that you may find useful:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4591

Good luck!

[ToadWort]

I just recently leaned about back grounds (linage?), which I must admit is an odd concept for me. We have horses and my pup of course and in this case (nothing against mutt lovers), pedigree for these animals are "very" important to us, given what we use the animals for. Now, I have no idea if "pedigree" is the correct term or if y'll go to that extreme, but I see it as a positive, personally. I also have been reading about "flippers" in one of the threads. The things I'm learning lol. No pun intended, but on the flip side :lol:. For the Dendrobates Tinctorius "French Guiana Dwarf Cobalt", it's suggested a wider/longer tank is better than a tall, does a 24 x 18 x 18 sound about right? In addition to the frog back ground, are there particulars to look for?