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Surrogate Pumilio Transporting and Care.
#1
Well, being an impatient man, seeing developing eggs , and not yet finding any Uyama River Pumilio froglets hopping around yet , I am trying something new.

Robb Melancon has had good fortune with transplanting pumilio tads (from vivs of pumilio that are not wonderful parents ..BJs) into axils/pum tad receptacles in a viv where parental care seems to be much better all-around.
My question/concern is that I believe Robb says (please correct me if I am off base Robb) that you need to use an axil/deposit site that already has a tads placed so that the female/females know where to feed. What would happen if (I am trying this) you were to cut off/remove an egg or three, find a Basti clutch that is a little behind the Uyama eggs in development, place it as close as possible to the Basti clutch, let the Uyama clutch hatch and the Bastis take over from there?

Uyamas blend into a viv very well so it is quite possible that they are not bad parents at all, but I know some pumilio are touchier than others, so I am giving it a try.

Robb, please step in if I got something wrong or you can add any input. Your experience is much appreciated.

Thanks,
Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#2
Rich, I think what you are saying is using other pums to parent your Uyama tads. I think why not? Deposit your uyama tads into a tank or tanks that already have tads that are being fed. I imagine this would work. You could even try removing the exsisting tads to ensure no competition/cannibalsism. Although, I am certainly not as experienced as you or Rob. So maybe my advice isn't the best. Also, hasn't their been some experimentation with removing newly hatched tads and feeding them by hand? This could also work, at least in theory. Hope you get something going, I would love to see more pumilio morphs in the hobby. You have any darklands for me :lol:
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#3
Hi Craig,
The main twist is that I only place the egg/eggs from the Uyamas.
The Bastis would hopefully assume that the Uyama clutch (right next to/touching Basti eggs) would be perceived as Basti clutch and treated just as if the Bastis laid them . Surrogate from there on out.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#4
Rich, if you dont have any luck with the surrogate egg transportation you could try hatching the uyama eggs and placing uyama tads into brom axils already containing tads of other pums. Although you would be essentially sacrificing other pumilio tads it might be a small price to pay for some uyama offspring. Of course, this would be a last resort kind of thing. I'll be interested to hear if your successful. Also, haven't some europeans successfully raised other eggfeeder tads using homemade egg solutions? I heard of some dutch frogger guru, don't know his name, but I heard he was raising lehmani and histos using a mixture he had developed. Good Luck!
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#5
Rich, sounds like an interesting project. Have you contacted Robb yet? I know that chicken egg yolk can be substituted for infertile eggs, but it sounds like a messy process, with less than favorable results.
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#6
Dane,
I have yet to hear of anyone who has a "recipe" for feeder eggs. At least not one that works all of the time and requires less work/thought than cold fusion.
There is/has been some university study on the subject of artificial food for the pum tads but I have not heard any up-date recently.
I just thought that mixing an Uyama egg in with a Basti clutch may be the easiest, best route to go. The Uyama egg has hatched and is no longer in the axil I placed it in. I hope it was transported.
Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#7
Hey Rich, I was just wondering if these and/or the darklands are research frogs that cant be released to the public ? if so, can their offspring be sold ? Anyways maybe you already talked about the specifics of where these all came from and I missed it. If so, sorry to ask you to repeat yourself Wink
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#8
Hey dave are you gonna bug rich about this every time he posts something about Pum's? why not just pm him instead of hijacking every thread that rich starts?
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#9
The only other post i made similar to the one i made in this thread was one asking about the origins of his darklands. he's had pics of them up on his site for a long time (and it hasnt been updated in a long time).

I was curious as to wether these were the darklands he has had for along time (since his website implied he had been working with them for sometime since they are one of the frogs listed under "available", though i could have misunderstood) or if these were new frogs that he aquired from elsewhere recently.

I was also confused if in fact these were the only darklands he has ever had, or if they were new ones but he did or does have others. Also if he was breeding these new ones (if they are new) with his old ones (if he ever had others). And finally i wondered if any would find their way into the hobby.

You posted a link to another thread in response, which i assume was a subtle..."go look here and you will find the answer"....That link was to an 8 page thread and though i have scanned thru it twice i didnt find a direct answer to the origins of these frogs, or wether they would be released into the hobby eventually. i dont believe this new morph of pumilo is even mentioned in that thread anyways, but since its possible the answer to my darklands question was there and i missed it, i suppose its possible that there was info relating to this morph which i also missed.

If i wasnt methodical enough then i apologize. And honestly i didnt think rich or someone else in the know, would mind just giving me a direct answer instead of sending me off to read 8 pages worth of messages most of which didnt even pertain to my question.

Then i see rich posting about this new pumilo morph and i have the same question...so i asked about both morphs since i never found an answer to my original question regarding the darklands. Both are pumilo, and the question was regarding this new morph and not just the darklands which the thread was about, atleast to some extent.

Though admittedly my post wasnt directly related to how to feed them...again i apologize for not sticking so strictly to the topic, and had no idea that asking something about these frogs that wasnt related directly to their feeding would be considered hijacking. I wasnt aware that we were all expected to be so formal here.

Now if i would of asked rich to buy me a shiny new red bike for christmas then i would totally understand me being asked not to hijack the thread. Anyways i hope responding publicly here to your publicly posted take on my question isnt considered further hijacking. And im sorry i didnt PM him about my original question, but then again you could have pm'ed me your concerns about my "hijacking" instead of further steering this post away from the original topic.

Ofcourse rich is probably the one really at fault here, he could have just said "pm me" when i originally asked my question regarding darklands, which might have spawned a completely different sequence of events up until now...a sequence in which for some reason i never thought to ask about this other morph....DAMN YOU RICH!!!!!! Wink

Anyways sorry this post ended up so long everyone, i just wanted to explain my posts and make it clear that i had no idea it would be taken as hijacking. I apologize that i did it publicly and in this thread, but it was publicly and in this thread that i was accused of hijacking so i thought it only fair. And though the words "lighten up" come to mind i harbor no ill will towards pgb, and hope he feels likewise.

Peace Dude,
Dave
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#10
Hi Guys,

The long and the short of the "pumilio hot topic" would be that unless you see me advertising a pumilio morph for sale it most likely is not.

I do have some lovely orange bastis and red bastis for sale :wink: :wink: though.

Some of my pumilio are loaned to me. Some may never be available for sale. Some may be traded to people who have the skills to work with them. Some are going to MSU. Some ( from every morph I work with) are being held back.

I guess the bottom line is that it is possible that some offspring may go out to froggers that are able to keep these beauties in the hobby, but you will NEVER see "Darklands, Nancies, Uyamas, San Christobols, Robalos, or Cayo de Aquas" in a "For Sale" add posted by myself or Frye Brother's Frogs.

I am not offended or pissed at all by Dave's questions, but this actually has been discussed. I just tend to write too much to make topics super easy to look up in the archives.

I am trying to make sure that these "rarer" pumilio morphs STAY in the U.S. hobby for a long time to come. They will not go to the highest bidder...period.

Take care,
Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#11
pm sent (so not to further derail things)
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#12
Hey Rich,

Sorry I haven't responded to this earlier. I don't keep up with this forum as much as others. Anyway, replacing eggs has worked before though I haven't used that technique as much as the others. What I would suggest is replacing the entire clutch, minus maybe one of the bastis. Reason being that they normally don't transport the entire clutch so if you did add only a couple to the clutch they may not get transported. Also replacing the entire clutch you would have a less chance of damaging the embryo. That being said, I have never tried this, so I'm just theorizing that replacing the entire clutch would work. One additional thing to try if you go this route and they abandon the clutch would be to dilute some of the surrogate parent's poop in water and pour this over the eggs so that hopefully you would disguise any foreign scents.

Just some thoughts, let me know how this progresses.

Robb
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#13
hello rich and all.
this is going to be a disjointed, somewhat off topic post.

So the uyamas are dead beat parents huh. bummer, but i think that success with surrogates is a possibility. I think the egg switcheroo is the best option, but never had to try any such thing. Also time will help, and you might just have to wait for them to figure out the parental aspects.

You once said you didn't raise man creeks, cause of their questionable locality. I know i read the locale of the uyamas on here once, forgot where they are from. Do you think that some day we can find out their locale? (man creeks, chiriquis)

In my experience with them they make amazing parents, and i think my mommas have a "no child left behind policy." They might help out your current dilemma.

Is # 5 an uyama or robalo, or neither? What are you thoughts on the new shipments or shipment? Do you plan on acquiring any, or is their lack of data bothering you? I know you place a huge premium on knowing what the hell you've got.

Rereading this i know i had more to say but cant remember it.
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#14
Thanks for the thought Robb,
I have tried this with a couple San Christobol tads a month or so ago. I await the outcome.

Hi Jace,
I have collected one Uyama froglet. I think I need to put them in a larger viv. Uyama River is north of Robalo (actually physically closer to Darklands than Robalo), it is on a map.
The issues with the green frogs and the red frogs that have come in remain the same.
I don't believe that any of those frogs Marcus has listed are Robalo or Uyama. There may be a bit more light at the end of the local tunnel with these new guys than with the red and the greens.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#15
This a is San Christobal froglet, very close to morphing, surrogate cared for by Bastis.
I removed it from the brom axil because the axil looked like it was on its last leg.
WaaaaHooo!
http://www.dartden.com/viewtopic.php?p=5411#5411
Still can't post a pic in Q+A..........


Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Like Reply
#16
What do these deadbeat parents do in the wild?
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#17
Quote:What do these deadbeat parents do in the wild?
Produce fewer offspring. I suspect that there are many other factors in the wild that encourage parental care that aren't replicated in captive situations.
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#18
Great Advanced Husbandry Topic !

I def find increased frequency of pumilio froglets from my 1.2 breeding groups as opposed to my 1.1's .
https://www.facebook.com/dartden/

https://twitter.com/DartDen


"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#19
can i ask was a successful method of surrogacy established?
regards
Stu
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#20
I never observed any definitive benefit from having a 1.2 for my Cristobal, but that doesn't mean it isn't beneficial. At worst I think the extra female put strain on my springtail population. I pulled her last week in anticipation of 1-3 froglets appearing. The tad in the film can has maybe 1 week of tail left. I don't have enough experience with my trio to really say anything for sure, but posting to share my impressions at this point.
Scott - North Dallas
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