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What is "line Breeding" ?
#1
Line Breeding or Selective Breeding- Breeding the same species together with certain individuals to try to produce a particularly marked frog - colours and traits. An example of selective breeding would be: fine spot D.Leucomelas, “Sky Blue” D.Azureus, or “Chocolate D.Leucomelas”. Line Breeding is almost always commercial in nature.

Imported O.pumilio are currently, best managed by year of import, since we have little to no site specificity or locale information for them. This results in pockets of a certain years imports , or possibly from the same importer which are scattered throughout the U.S hobby to be bred together. In the absence of site data, this is arguably the best form of hobby managment that we can perform for a given morph. It's far from ideal, but it's really all we have at the moment.

As you can see, this attempt at managing a particualr morph of a species so that we can continue to be able to have a somewhat accurate representation of that particular animal in the hobby and rely a little bit less on further imports is no where near what can be considered "line breeding" or selective breeding.

Big difference.
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#2
Yikes...maybe "Sky Blue" azureus is not a line bred trait after all ?

dendrobates-genus-f55/sky-blue-azureus-tinctorious-t4569.html?hilit=sky blue


I know Sean Stewart breeds a couple pairs, but I'm not sure he specifically selects, holds back and re-breeds for that trait.

Confus-catng ? Yup.
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#3
Selective breeding and line breeding are not the same thing. You can use line breeding to do selective breeding, but you can do selective breeding without line breeding. Just a terminology thing.
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#4
Brian...can you write up "hobby related" definitions of both terms ?...I'll use the info for our sticky here.
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#5
Inbreeding - the act of mating closely related individuals.

Line breeding - Selective inbreeding to perpetuate certain desired qualities or characteristics within a closed group.

Outcrossing - breeding a member of a line to an unrelated member of the same breed or morph.

Selective breeding - breeding for selective traits.
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#6
Out crossing is actually any breeding of one frog (or animal , or plant , or...) to any other frog not of the original breeding population in which mating can occur. A mostly unnatural occurrence.
One species (let alone "breed" ((not used in darts as we luckily are not turning wolves into dogs, yet )) or "morph"... phenotype and /or genotype...) of darts can and will interbreed with other or same species, not of same population.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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#7
...and, yes, the "sky blue" (Brazialian, originally reported, in nature...just as there are lemon drop looking occurances in nature, but they are very few and far between) azureus in our hobby are/have been selectively bred for the aesthetic traits.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#8
Thanks for that addtional clarification Rich. I forsee a course, or at least part of a course on Genetics in my near future. I hope to get a stronger working knowledge of it.
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#9
Rich,

These definitions move around a lot, depending on plant, animal, who defines them, etc. But to define it better, we'd need to talk about crossbreeding and hybridization, which are better definitions in some cases. I would dump those types into crossbreeding.
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#10
Actually, the term , pertaining to our hobby, is exactly as I state.
Out crossing /"crossbreeding", but not hybridization ( hybridization occurs also, but you can out cross without hybridizing)can and does occur all the time.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#11
That is the problem. The terminology is imprecise and different among different hobbies that use it.

There are other areas that have similar definitions that aren't clear. Thats why many sites that describe the terms say "often used to describe...".

To extend on that, lets take the dictionary definition: Outcrossing - To cross (animals or plants) by breeding individuals of different strains but usually of the same breed.

That leaves us with "Outcrossing - breeding a member of a line to an unrelated member of the same breed or morph." if we get rid of USUALLY. In the heritage breed groups I participate in, this has become the norm. Outcrossing becomes a type of crossbreeding then, not an identical definition.

Hybridization, of course, is another mess. Taxonomic hybrid is where I generally define it, two different species bred together.

Crossbreeding remains the "hairy one". From Wikipedia: A crossbreed or crossbred usually refers to an animal with purebred parents of two different breeds, varieties, or populations. That dang "usually" is in there again. This has been left open to interpretation.

To make it clear, here would be some examples. I could crossbreed two populations. This could be outcrossing as well if the two populations are the same breed, just different locales. However, if they were different breeds, it would not be outcrossing. If I wanted to make a certain shade of blue, for instance, I would be selective breeding. If I used a sibling mating to set this shade of blue, it would be inbreeding. If I then outcrossed the frogs, but continued using this related group to refine the trait, I would be line breeding.

Now, with all the current taxonomic errors and some frogs defined as different breeds or morphs and some of them considered variations within a single morph or breed, it all gets foggy again! LOL!


Note the term "usually". Hence, no, dart frog breeding should probably tighten up the terminology.
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#12
BrianWI Wrote:That is the problem. The terminology is imprecise and different among different hobbies that use it.

There are other areas that have similar definitions that aren't clear. Thats why many sites that describe the terms say "often used to describe...".

To extend on that, lets take the dictionary definition: Outcrossing - To cross (animals or plants) by breeding individuals of different strains but usually of the same breed.

That leaves us with "Outcrossing - breeding a member of a line to an unrelated member of the same breed or morph." if we get rid of USUALLY. In the heritage breed groups I participate in, this has become the norm. Outcrossing becomes a type of crossbreeding then, not an identical definition.

Hybridization, of course, is another mess. Taxonomic hybrid is where I generally define it, two different species bred together.

Crossbreeding remains the "hairy one". From Wikipedia: A crossbreed or crossbred usually refers to an animal with purebred parents of two different breeds, varieties, or populations. That dang "usually" is in there again. This has been left open to interpretation.

To make it clear, here would be some examples. I could crossbreed two populations. This could be outcrossing as well if the two populations are the same breed, just different locales. However, if they were different breeds, it would not be outcrossing. If I wanted to make a certain shade of blue, for instance, I would be selective breeding. If I used a sibling mating to set this shade of blue, it would be inbreeding. If I then outcrossed the frogs, but continued using this related group to refine the trait, I would be line breeding.

Now, with all the current taxonomic errors and some frogs defined as different breeds or morphs and some of them considered variations within a single morph or breed, it all gets foggy again! LOL!


Note the term "usually". Hence, no, dart frog breeding should probably tighten up the terminology.

If you were to "crossbreed" two populations, from different locales as in your example the hobby would look at that as a hybrid, becaues you're not keeping the bloodline from either locale pure. If you used two different breeds (not sure what a breed of frog is since we don't have "breeds" of frogs) again, that would be a hybrid. Species would be a better word than breed. Even breeding two of the same species, but different morphs would be viewed as a hybrid.
Jon
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#13
Since one is looking at a true hybrid species or taxonomic hybrid, it could be a crossbreed.

I wish the terminology were more precise.
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#14
There is no such thing. We don't have "breeds" in the daft frog hobby. Dogs have breeds, cats have breeds, even cows have breeds. Dart frogs are differentiated by species, some species have different morphs. A breed is something man made, something an irresponsible, immoral, myopic person might do. Dogs have breeds because they are all the same species. Wild dogs have species name, they are wild. Dogs as we know them are domesticated. Dart frogs are wild animals, not domesticated.
Jon
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#15
I think your focusing on the negative. i have some ass't chicken breeds and they are different personalities, egg sizes, broodiness, etc. and i don't see anything wrong w/ them. If you choose a program not based on monetary gain you can "create" animals that are quite fine for free range animals that produce food and are better adapted to cold, heat, local disease resistance etc. Remember these animals are never goin back to the wild. Your following the same "evolution" that occurs in the wild, just for a different habitat.
Now creating cows that have utters so large that they trample them and die is not a good adaptation to shoot for and there are a lot of bad programs but i don't see anything wrong w/ creating a "breed" that makes them better adapted to situations other than cafo's. You don't have to inbreed to problem status to create a breed.
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stonerSmile
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#16
It is more terminology. When you use terms like inbreeding, crossbreeding, "breed" tags along. You can bring in morph, sport, landrace, etc., but it is all terminology. However, that drives attitude. You coyld say you were doing an "outcross" and another person could jump to the conclusion, by Rich's definition, that you are mixind species. Or you could be selective breeding, someone may think you are creating a line or inbreeding (and even though it happens regularly in nature, you'll probably have someone yell at you).
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#17
BrianWI Wrote:That is the problem. The terminology is imprecise and different among different hobbies that use it.

There are other areas that have similar definitions that aren't clear. Thats why many sites that describe the terms say "often used to describe...".

To extend on that, lets take the dictionary definition: Outcrossing - To cross (animals or plants) by breeding individuals of different strains but usually of the same breed.

That leaves us with "Outcrossing - breeding a member of a line to an unrelated member of the same breed or morph." if we get rid of USUALLY. In the heritage breed groups I participate in, this has become the norm. Outcrossing becomes a type of crossbreeding then, not an identical definition.

Hybridization, of course, is another mess. Taxonomic hybrid is where I generally define it, two different species bred together.

Crossbreeding remains the "hairy one". From Wikipedia: A crossbreed or crossbred usually refers to an animal with purebred parents of two different breeds, varieties, or populations. That dang "usually" is in there again. This has been left open to interpretation.

To make it clear, here would be some examples. I could crossbreed two populations. This could be outcrossing as well if the two populations are the same breed, just different locales. However, if they were different breeds, it would not be outcrossing. If I wanted to make a certain shade of blue, for instance, I would be selective breeding. If I used a sibling mating to set this shade of blue, it would be inbreeding. If I then outcrossed the frogs, but continued using this related group to refine the trait, I would be line breeding.

Now, with all the current taxonomic errors and some frogs defined as different breeds or morphs and some of them considered variations within a single morph or breed, it all gets foggy again! LOL!


Note the term "usually". Hence, no, dart frog breeding should probably tighten up the terminology.





As has been pointed out a couple times, if you want to discuss terms, we need to all use terms we actually use in the hobby.
"Breed" is not one of them. "Breed" does not pertain to our hobby. And "morph" is slowly going away too. Many of your definitions make no sense ,relevant to our hobby.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#18
BrianWI Wrote:... You coyld say you were doing an "outcross" and another person could jump to the conclusion, by Rich's definition, that you are mixind species.

One could jump, but they would not understand me. Two differnt locales can be mixed (outcrossed) and be the same species. Different breeding popualtion. By definition...But, two different species can be outcrossed also.


BrianWI Wrote:Or you could be selective breeding, someone may think you are creating a line or inbreeding (and even though it happens regularly in nature, you'll probably have someone yell at you).

We all selectively breed. And, you are selectively breeding every time you select one frog to be placed with another, no matter what the lineage, species, or genetics involved .
Nature just does a better job in the end.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#19
Rich,

That is the main purpose of the topic, To increase understanding. Throw in the terms you think should be used.

I know froggers like to go by locales. What differentiates these populations? How significant is it? I for one would test the differences. I would breed them together. Would these "mixed" locale offspring have any differences from aither of the two "pure" offspring. If not, why would we treat them as separate "lines".
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#20
RichFrye Wrote:
BrianWI Wrote:... You coyld say you were doing an "outcross" and another person could jump to the conclusion, by Rich's definition, that you are mixind species.

One could jump, but they would not understand me. Two differnt locales can be mixed (outcrossed) and be the same species. Different breeding popualtion. By definition...But, two different species can be outcrossed also.


BrianWI Wrote:Or you could be selective breeding, someone may think you are creating a line or inbreeding (and even though it happens regularly in nature, you'll probably have someone yell at you).

We all selectively breed (verb use OK, noun, not) . And, you are selectively breeding every time you select one frog to be placed with another, no matter what the lineage, species, or genetics involved .
Nature just does a better job in the end.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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