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Yikes...maybe "Sky Blue" azureus is not a line bred trait after all ?
dendrobates-genus-f55/sky-blue-azureus-tinctorious-t4569.html?hilit=sky blue
I know Sean Stewart breeds a couple pairs, but I'm not sure he specifically selects, holds back and re-breeds for that trait.
Confus-catng ? Yup.
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Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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That is the problem. The terminology is imprecise and different among different hobbies that use it.
There are other areas that have similar definitions that aren't clear. Thats why many sites that describe the terms say "often used to describe...".
To extend on that, lets take the dictionary definition: Outcrossing - To cross (animals or plants) by breeding individuals of different strains but usually of the same breed.
That leaves us with "Outcrossing - breeding a member of a line to an unrelated member of the same breed or morph." if we get rid of USUALLY. In the heritage breed groups I participate in, this has become the norm. Outcrossing becomes a type of crossbreeding then, not an identical definition.
Hybridization, of course, is another mess. Taxonomic hybrid is where I generally define it, two different species bred together.
Crossbreeding remains the "hairy one". From Wikipedia: A crossbreed or crossbred usually refers to an animal with purebred parents of two different breeds, varieties, or populations. That dang "usually" is in there again. This has been left open to interpretation.
To make it clear, here would be some examples. I could crossbreed two populations. This could be outcrossing as well if the two populations are the same breed, just different locales. However, if they were different breeds, it would not be outcrossing. If I wanted to make a certain shade of blue, for instance, I would be selective breeding. If I used a sibling mating to set this shade of blue, it would be inbreeding. If I then outcrossed the frogs, but continued using this related group to refine the trait, I would be line breeding.
Now, with all the current taxonomic errors and some frogs defined as different breeds or morphs and some of them considered variations within a single morph or breed, it all gets foggy again! LOL!
Note the term "usually". Hence, no, dart frog breeding should probably tighten up the terminology.
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BrianWI Wrote:That is the problem. The terminology is imprecise and different among different hobbies that use it.
There are other areas that have similar definitions that aren't clear. Thats why many sites that describe the terms say "often used to describe...".
To extend on that, lets take the dictionary definition: Outcrossing - To cross (animals or plants) by breeding individuals of different strains but usually of the same breed.
That leaves us with "Outcrossing - breeding a member of a line to an unrelated member of the same breed or morph." if we get rid of USUALLY. In the heritage breed groups I participate in, this has become the norm. Outcrossing becomes a type of crossbreeding then, not an identical definition.
Hybridization, of course, is another mess. Taxonomic hybrid is where I generally define it, two different species bred together.
Crossbreeding remains the "hairy one". From Wikipedia: A crossbreed or crossbred usually refers to an animal with purebred parents of two different breeds, varieties, or populations. That dang "usually" is in there again. This has been left open to interpretation.
To make it clear, here would be some examples. I could crossbreed two populations. This could be outcrossing as well if the two populations are the same breed, just different locales. However, if they were different breeds, it would not be outcrossing. If I wanted to make a certain shade of blue, for instance, I would be selective breeding. If I used a sibling mating to set this shade of blue, it would be inbreeding. If I then outcrossed the frogs, but continued using this related group to refine the trait, I would be line breeding.
Now, with all the current taxonomic errors and some frogs defined as different breeds or morphs and some of them considered variations within a single morph or breed, it all gets foggy again! LOL!
Note the term "usually". Hence, no, dart frog breeding should probably tighten up the terminology.
If you were to "crossbreed" two populations, from different locales as in your example the hobby would look at that as a hybrid, becaues you're not keeping the bloodline from either locale pure. If you used two different breeds (not sure what a breed of frog is since we don't have "breeds" of frogs) again, that would be a hybrid. Species would be a better word than breed. Even breeding two of the same species, but different morphs would be viewed as a hybrid.
Jon
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"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stoner
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It is more terminology. When you use terms like inbreeding, crossbreeding, "breed" tags along. You can bring in morph, sport, landrace, etc., but it is all terminology. However, that drives attitude. You coyld say you were doing an "outcross" and another person could jump to the conclusion, by Rich's definition, that you are mixind species. Or you could be selective breeding, someone may think you are creating a line or inbreeding (and even though it happens regularly in nature, you'll probably have someone yell at you).
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BrianWI Wrote:That is the problem. The terminology is imprecise and different among different hobbies that use it.
There are other areas that have similar definitions that aren't clear. Thats why many sites that describe the terms say "often used to describe...".
To extend on that, lets take the dictionary definition: Outcrossing - To cross (animals or plants) by breeding individuals of different strains but usually of the same breed.
That leaves us with "Outcrossing - breeding a member of a line to an unrelated member of the same breed or morph." if we get rid of USUALLY. In the heritage breed groups I participate in, this has become the norm. Outcrossing becomes a type of crossbreeding then, not an identical definition.
Hybridization, of course, is another mess. Taxonomic hybrid is where I generally define it, two different species bred together.
Crossbreeding remains the "hairy one". From Wikipedia: A crossbreed or crossbred usually refers to an animal with purebred parents of two different breeds, varieties, or populations. That dang "usually" is in there again. This has been left open to interpretation.
To make it clear, here would be some examples. I could crossbreed two populations. This could be outcrossing as well if the two populations are the same breed, just different locales. However, if they were different breeds, it would not be outcrossing. If I wanted to make a certain shade of blue, for instance, I would be selective breeding. If I used a sibling mating to set this shade of blue, it would be inbreeding. If I then outcrossed the frogs, but continued using this related group to refine the trait, I would be line breeding.
Now, with all the current taxonomic errors and some frogs defined as different breeds or morphs and some of them considered variations within a single morph or breed, it all gets foggy again! LOL!
Note the term "usually". Hence, no, dart frog breeding should probably tighten up the terminology.
As has been pointed out a couple times, if you want to discuss terms, we need to all use terms we actually use in the hobby.
"Breed" is not one of them. "Breed" does not pertain to our hobby. And "morph" is slowly going away too. Many of your definitions make no sense ,relevant to our hobby.
Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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BrianWI Wrote:... You coyld say you were doing an "outcross" and another person could jump to the conclusion, by Rich's definition, that you are mixind species.
One could jump, but they would not understand me. Two differnt locales can be mixed (outcrossed) and be the same species. Different breeding popualtion. By definition...But, two different species can be outcrossed also.
BrianWI Wrote:Or you could be selective breeding, someone may think you are creating a line or inbreeding (and even though it happens regularly in nature, you'll probably have someone yell at you).
We all selectively breed. And, you are selectively breeding every time you select one frog to be placed with another, no matter what the lineage, species, or genetics involved .
Nature just does a better job in the end.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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RichFrye Wrote:BrianWI Wrote:... You coyld say you were doing an "outcross" and another person could jump to the conclusion, by Rich's definition, that you are mixind species.
One could jump, but they would not understand me. Two differnt locales can be mixed (outcrossed) and be the same species. Different breeding popualtion. By definition...But, two different species can be outcrossed also.
BrianWI Wrote:Or you could be selective breeding, someone may think you are creating a line or inbreeding (and even though it happens regularly in nature, you'll probably have someone yell at you).
We all selectively breed (verb use OK, noun, not) . And, you are selectively breeding every time you select one frog to be placed with another, no matter what the lineage, species, or genetics involved .
Nature just does a better job in the end.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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