White Mouth Rot / Fungus in tadpoles

[Stu&Shaz]

Can anyone give me a list of possible causes of this in tadpoles,in their first week that have not been fed yet ? thank you and regards,

Stu

[Philsuma]

Stu,

I've had a few tadpoles present with a "cottony" susbtance in their mouth area. There was a 100% mortality with this.
Always with Tincs and auratus, Leucs - non obligates only.

I'm assuming it's what you have.

I would make sure you have Indian Almond and/or Blackwater extract - the PH should help keep this bacteria down.

There is a case where too much protein - such as commercial protein heavy processed foods like "tadpole bites" found in big pet store chains, can possibly cause this.

Personally, I think there is no avoiding it. It's an immune system issue with the animal and there's not much you can or even should do. It was less than 10% of my tadpoles if that's any consolation.

[Stu&Shaz]

Stu,

I've had a few tadpoles present with a "cottony" susbtance in their mouth area. There was a 100% mortality with this.
Always with Tincs and auratus, Leucs - non obligates only.

I'm assuming it's what you have.

I would make sure you have Indian Almond and/or Blackwater extract - the PH should help keep this bacteria down.

There is a case where too much protein - such as commercial protein heavy processed foods like "tadpole bites" found in big pet store chains, can possibly cause this.

Personally, I think there is no avoiding it. It's an immune system issue with the animal and there's not much you can or even should do. It was less than 10% of my tadpoles if that's any consolation.

hey Buddy,yup your exactly bang on,to the letter,apart from the mortality in this case,i'll elabourate here but i might well do a more detailed study on Tods beginners thread,i need to sort some things out and speak to a mate in holland to see if he has anything on this as well.
Beginners huh,Phil we have been using oakleaves instead of the usual I.almond,but its nearly"fall" here so they are getting old,i thought this mouth rot might be caused by the leaves,so i omitted them and our oak tad tea from our latest hatch,which as luck would have it has been our best week,well lets say the oakleaves must be surpressing it,maybe not as well as the almond without proper testing who knows, but we have just gone from the odd one to around 10 out of 16,to say i'm gutted is an understatement. I am aware about the protien we or glen and i have talked about it,not sure whom.It came on real fast last night,i have tried to fight it by making a tea from aldercones,i've been told that these are really good for fighting this kind of thing (or at least prevention),and contain even more tannin than I.almond, i have been adding a few drops at a time gradually building up the strength so not to shock the tad,but i fear you are right looking at 100% mortality,but am not quite beaten yet,might just pull one through.I don't think any more have gone down with it since i started the drops. What is also startling Phil is not only was this the largest hatch in a few days,but the 2 auratus clutches hatched bang together,and strongest tads so far, thanks for the help mate, i have to try to mend them,but i understand your thoughts,does show that our oak was doing something though,can't be coincidence
regards
Stu

[Philsuma]

What species of frog / tadpole are we talkin' about Stu ?

Try Indian Almond leaves as Tea and THEN also include a slice of the boiled leaf in the tad container.

Remember....we can't and SHOULDN'T try to save every egg, tad and frog. The weak, diseased should be naturally culled.

[Stu&Shaz]

What species of frog / tadpole are we talkin' about Stu ?

Try Indian Almond leaves as Tea and THEN also include a slice of the boiled leaf in the tad container.

Remember....we can't and SHOULDN'T try to save every egg, tad and frog. The weak, diseased should be naturally culled.

Already in the pipeline Phil,safe supply sorted,for almond. Both auratus and mysties Phil.
I utterly agree that its no good to rear defective individuals mate,25 yrs rearing over 250 breeds of chuck have taught me this,in no uncirtain terms,especially in the confines of line breeding limited scarce gene pools. But in this case with the mortality being across 2 very different species,at exactly the same stage of developement under 1 week old,and NOT fed anything yet,i believe the stockman is at fault,ie me,the method needs a slight tweak,the next batch is comming through as we speak 2/3 days will show if aldercones make a difference,whist we wait on almond.Our tadpols get a cirtain amount of testing anyway because of the methods we employ. So far we have no other losses/problems even in the gizmo,where we are trying out a new T5 6% uvb light made by arcadia. This is a bit out there mate but am playing a hunch.
regards
Stu

[Philsuma]

Those 2 species are closer related that you may think...only recently separated from the Dendrobates genus.

I would, as you say, eliminate the variables - in this case the main being the water.

Maybe choosing "grocery store" bottled spring water and then definitely use some different leaves / tannins.

[Stu&Shaz]

Those 2 species are closer related that you say...only recently separated from the Dendrobates genus.

I would, as you say, eliminate the variables - in this case the main being the water.

Maybe choosing "grocery store" bottled spring water and then definitely uses some different leaves / tannins.

yeah i realise about the newness of excidobates Phil,but very different in the flesh.....externally,how they move shape,egg size,how they hunt...habit,i've often heard mysties described as brown spotted auratus,on american forums inside they might be similar i don't know exactly what the defining differences are that got them put elsewhere,but when you have them side by side they are utterly different,we keep the 3 basic tinctorius members...luecs/auratus.tintorius,they are way more different than those Phil to a laymans eyes,throw the habitat in as well,a cliff face as opposed to jungle floor,i might just stand my ground here mate :lol: ,tadpoles very different aswell,although i can't comment on the luecs and tinc tads yet of course (can you tell them apart at d/o ?) ,i think you might be surprised on living with them,but you know me well enough to know i'll always stand corrected.
I hear you on the water mate,as i said they don't get it too easy,what i don't really want to do is go away from a method thats in essence working,maybe for a few that are not up to scratch. Changing the water would be huge for me,much bigger than a different leaf type,at presant i have no sls,have turned the first tadpol from the first viable egg into a strong viable froglet,from young parents,the 3 that have just come out are all good so far,i'm deffinatly not being arguementative i just think we might be close as novices can be to having a bit of a leftfield method thats is working.It might well be i have to rethink my water at some stage,if so we'll get from Malvern,its renouned the world over for its spring water,and there is a pipe in the town,just fill up,3/4 hr drive,personally i'd rather that than bottled unknown. Don't want to be too drastic for guys that might not be viable any way,as you can see i'm arguing with myself without conclusions yet, thanks again for your thoughts Phil,much appreciated
regards
Stu

[Philsuma]

Stu....how many total tadpoles with mouth fungus are we talking about and what's the approx percentage has the mouth issue of the total number of tadpoles ?

Is it always in the same stage of development ?

Can you get a pick of the white stuff ?

[Stu&Shaz]

Stu....how many total tadpoles with mouth fungus are we talking about and what's the approx percentage has the mouth issue of the total number of tadpoles ?

Is it always in the same stage of development ?

Can you get a pick of the white stuff ?

Phil i have also posted about this on my room thread, i wanted as many people as possible to see what i believe now to be my mistake i think massive fingers crossed its sorted,one of our retailers here has alder cones for sale on his site,he states this is very much stronger than indian almond for tannins, i had a stash of them and treated ,i have not seen it since around 15 tads this week all clear,initally until i omitted the tea i guess well below 10 % on omitting the oak leaf tea around 10 out of 16 on commencement of the alder 0%,just in from grafting all looking good,always occurs with a few days of hatch,if you want to copy what i have put on my room thread else where so folks have a potential different option by all means mate do so. I really am hoping that i might have eliminated this.
As above i have chucked this about all over,which has been pretty hard,as i hold only me responsible,in an effort to tell as many folks as possible comming behind me,what happened and a potential preventative cure,sorry no pics at the time i just wanted my little charges right,wasn't really thinking straight,too busy tearing my self a new one and trying to get it sorted,
thanks for the concearn,i believe its real important to show where i go wrong and where i get a result,especially as i do some things slightly different to others: live tad grub,multi tad rearing system, uvb, wild grub on adults rainwater etc.
For this problem to occur like it did so violently,at a direct correlation to the omission of the tea and to vanish completely on hitting it with a higher tannin level can't be just coincidence,evrything else is utterly the same,the minute i started the alder it stopped 100%,
thanks again mate,fingers crossed!!!
regards
Stu