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Can we recommend 10 gallon tanks AT ALL ?
The one thing that is making it harder to beat this is the companies building vivs. Why they decideds to build 12'' cubes or 12x12x18 I have no idea. They should have named them house gecko vivs or arachnid homes as that is all I myself would use them for.
The new vivs in the works have me wondering as well. What sizes will they be.
Again this is all based on preference, ideas and even hobby supported in many cases but there are many sides to it. Id like to see more work put into what ever viv people use as the actual husbandry is what our hobby needs to advance. I myself will keep at it with ''Bigger Is Better'' Someone that posts alot needs that in their signature
Why you would pay out hundreds or in some cases a thousand or more for frogs and skimp on the viv I have no clue. Paying ten dollars for a ten gallon to put a $400 pair of Regina's in I just couldn't do.

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Poison Beauties Wrote:I agree some frogs dont use the entire viv. My issue is with people keeping pairs of fullgrown breeding tincs in 10's. When you pass say ten pairs its obvious your just after numbers and money. To have 30-50 of them this way is just stupid.

I do and have always had the space and I never had a breeding pair in less than a 55 and froglet bins were 20 longs forever. I see just as much breeding behavior as anyone in a 10 or 20 does, Its all in the care and setup.


I understand the post title. However there are comments in the thread that are not directed at said title, hence my post. Yes there are things to consider when putting frogs in a ten. There are plenty of options besides a ten out there and many more coming out, I would not steer a new person to the hobby away from a ten. I would make certain recommendations and suggestions as frog selection, etc. Again I took into consideration the title of the thread going towards new hobbyists, however the tone of this and other posts in the thread led to my original response.
If you can still count the number of frogs you have, you obviously don't have enough.
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I do not think frogs should be kept in 10g tanks. My frogs are kept in at least 45g tanks and sometimes I would like them in larger if I had the room.
Now, stating that I believe 10g is too small, I think new hobbyists shouldn't be turned away from them. I do think that they need to go into this with the intention of upgrading to larger vivs in the future. A 10g is a great way to get into this new venture with them being so cheap, easy to make room for, and easy to work with. Once they get the hang of everything, and once their frogs have grown, then I'm sure they will want to step up to a larger viv.
I started out with a very small tank, embarressed to say a 5.5g, but quickly realized the frogs needed something larger. Plus, after joining the forum, I saw everyone else's large tanks and the things that could be done with them.
Scott Bryant
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Anyone care to post pics of some full grown Tincs in a well done 10g?

I can't even get my head wrapped around that... They're so narrow.
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I couldn't imagine keeping my pair of reginas in a 10g. Like I said, sometimes I feel like the 45g they are in is too small for them.
Scott Bryant
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I took these tonight.

10g H. azureiventris. This tank is at least 3.5 years old.
[Image: azertank.jpg]

10g Infer-Alanis Tank
[Image: inferalanistank.jpg]
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems
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that Tinc tank looks "tight" with it's overgrowth, not to mention dangerous for plants to get under the lid, causing lid failure.

I've seen pothos lift up a glass lid and that's also been reported by numerous other hobbyists.

Jason, you are obviously an advanced level hobbyist - far from the newbie level we are discussing here, and can adequately deal with those husbandry issues with smaller tanks above.

Here's another observation that I garnered from my visit to Sean Stewarts facility yesterday. Sean has numerous species kept in plastic shoe boxes -froglet containers,grow-outs, temporary size. 10 or so boxes container the "advanced" or difficult to raise R. reticulatus species. While feeding and spraying a particular shoebox containing 2 Retics, that were being temp stored / growing out, we discovered two (02) eggs on a leaf. The Retics reached sexual age, mated and laid eggs in a temp sized shoe box !

Can it be done? Obviously.

Should we all rush to buy plastic shoeboxes ? Probably not.

Can I recommend and start a thread in the hopes that new people can be give some choices of small enclosures? Not me. Never.

"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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That is something I was hoping wouldn't come up. I do think there are a ''FEW'' species that do adapt well to smaller enclosures as morph-outs and Juvies, None of which are by any means a beginner or even intermediate species in my opinion. I actually used 5 gallon verts for my retic froglets. These frogs can come out of the water the size of a bb and that is not an exageration. They get lost in the leaf litter and you may go months without seeing them or they die and you never know until you go looking and dont find them. I would place the tad cup in each 5 gallon right about morph time and once the frog moved out an into the viv I did not touch them for 4-6 months as they can and will stress out and kill over. At about 4 months I would start watching and digging around for them. At six months I moved them to group vivs so I could start watching for pairing and courtship. By this time it was usually 5 of them to a 55 gallon. Once they are established I usually pulled the extra males at about the 1 year mark. And none of the species Im thinking of do any better in smaller vivs than larger ones. Infact adult retics will use every sq inch of their viv. Males will patrol it daily.
There are issues that make it practical to use smaller setups in some occasions. But being that this is geared for newer hobbyists I dont see any reason a 20 gallon is asking too much. It allows for many more options and even mistakes like over watering and bad plant selection better micro fauna management and more space as many hobbyists take years to get sexing them right so the extra space helps when there is a possibility you may have a couple rivals in the viv..

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Phil, I don’t think I am an expert.

There are some things to think about when using 10g. I like over growth, provides visual barriers, and climbing area. I do have to do trimmings every 3-4 weeks. You can’t see it but there is leaf litter and springtails. I use plant saucers for water dishes, the females enjoy soaking after egg laying.
I would not recommend anything smaller than a 10g.

I had great success with imitators in 2.5g in college, but I would not recommended it or do it again. It was a residency thing.
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems
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Again....temp tanks, Q-tine enclosures, "overflow" tanks, Grow outs ect......are all acceptable and useful to the advanced hobbyist.

"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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Here is something written by Ed , posted on another forum that pertains to this topic:

Quote:"Ideal" size, not "what is the smallest thing you can get away with"

Actually they may be one and the same.. if people can set aside thier personal preferences for a minute and really think about the issue....

The minimal habitat size is determined by the minimal amount of area that enables the animal to meet it's needs (behavioral, physiological and depending on species social).. If all of the appropriate needs can be met in a small area then that is the minimal area needed for that animal...

A person cannot say that the animal's needs will automatically be met by increasing the size of the enclosure as depending on how the enclosure is set up, the usable area can easily be less than that of a smaller enclosure depending on how the needs are met or not met... the same goes for a smaller enclosure.. particularly when there is a long history behind it. What we can say for sure is that a poorly set-up or improperly set up enclosure will not provide for the needs of the animals regardless of the size of the enclosure.

The driver should be providing the best available habitat for the frogs.. not setting a standard that x gallons of tank space is required for this or that type of frog as this does not address quality of habitat as it doesn't matter if the cage is the size of a large room for one tiny frog if that area is not set-up properly.

Stepping out of the objective point of view..

Personally I like to see the trend towards larger enclosures as they provide some options not available or not easily accomplished in smaller enclosures but at the same time, I am seeing an upswing in dogma on minimal enclosure sizes.. (enough that I have on occasion regretted breaking down the 5 gallon/frog rule..).. In some threads it is almost like people are competing on who is providing the better habitat by providing bigger tanks instead of concentrating on the needs of the frogs..

One of the things people should always consider is does this provide a suitable habitat for the frogs.. often we see enclosures for leaf litter dwelling species planted so heavily that there is little if any open space for the frogs outside of some open space near the center of the tank.. yet few people consider that this along with the lack of seasonality in the enclosures that it could be playing a role in the reoccuring theme on "poor quality frogs" or why don't the frogs get as big, look like etc, wild collected specimens of the same frog....

We should be very happy the frogs are as adaptable as they are...
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Ed and I have gone round and round on that exact quote....

I do not disagree with that statement.

However, a new hobbyist often requires substantial direction, guidence - most often VERY quickly (impulse animal purchases).

To service the new hobbyist and provide the greatest chance of assistance, we often have to oversimpify care and husbandry methods. Hobby groups are also going to come up with minimum standards one day as well.

The "fish tank" is here to stay, and so is the "gallon" unit of measurement. Remember the metric system, and how well the U.S tried to implement that? Same thing with gallons. We just have to work with what we got and at the same time, oversimplify it to best reach and service the new hobbyists.

The advanced stuff:

1) Spatial requirements of the animals - their size, conditions and habits.
2) Nutrient Acquisition - ease of.
3) Stress - provides adequate niches and barriers for all animals.
4) Pathogens and Disease prevention, accumulation and removal are addressed. available as well, but for newer hobbyists, some too young to even understand 1-4....

We're gonna have to be prepared to go with "gallons" to start.

"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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When I was building out my zoo med I did quite a few calculations on the measurements to figure out how much actual space was being used by substrate, plants, etc.

With a 10 gallon that space would be taken up a lot quicker. You are looking at 5-8 gallons of usable space after the substrate, background (if any), and plants, are in. Putting a pair in a 10 gallon with 5 gallons being used for stubstrate and planting will leave 2.5 gallons per frog...
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I saw an attempt, where someone tried hard to "mathematically" or scientifically break down space requirements for different species of dart frogs.

While well-intentioned, it was pretty much a complete fail. Enclosure design and how it effects space requirements of different species and sex rations, is a pretty complex topic.

I don't have a better idea for an inclusive chart or formulae, but I think we can make a Starting point - a simplistic guide than CAN include gallons for instance, as described in this thread above.

"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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hahaha, I would like to know if there are any others relying on 10's for all their breeding needs..

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I use 10's for temporary housing (QT or lone frogs waiting on a mate), but I am firmly in the "bigger is better" camp for permanent housing. Sure, it is possible to do a 10 that accounts for the frog's basic needs, but I find it much more satisfying to go beyond the basics. Try setting up a 10 that gives a pair of tincs room to establish territories, breed, transport tads and allow them to develop in place, or that sustains enough microfauna for thumbs or pumilio to raise their young and allow them to grow in the parental viv for a few months. Going for the basics only cuts out some of the most interesting behaviors, and it is simply more fun to design a larger viv.
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I say no.......I am also in the larger is better camp as well.

How in the hell does one know what the spatial needs of a frog is when comparing wide open nature to an enclosure? This is the same type of back and forth argument people in the reef hobby have with certain fish( marine angels, tangs).

Is there any studies that have been done on what wild frogs use as far as space? How does that translate over to a captive bred frogs that has never been in the wild and possibly has no natural need for the same amount of space that a wild caught frog would need to settle and be healthy? Is the there a minimum space horizontal and vertical?(yes I am sure) With a maximum being as big as one can afford, build or house? I don't know but have seen this come up quite a few times. I have read Ed's post over and over but cannot decipher any conclusions as to what and how one builds a viv within what he calls the "spatial needs".

Now if there is studies that say R. imitator needs 3 ft of cubic space minimum(wild territories) for them to viable, healthy, breed then I have some understanding and can possibly calculate that into living space with in a vivarium. But if this spatial need is let's say 8ft, 10ft, 12ft of cubic space then there is no way in hell one can make a ten gallon viable under any construction circumstance......I don't know this either just asking.

I personally have never went with the thought in mind of get by with the minimal amount of usable space( smallest viv/tank) mentality and usually have in this hobby and past ones shot for the most amount of usable space(larger viv/tank) that I can afford and house.

I have tried to build mine with as much floor space and backgrounds that also have things(broms, vines, protrusions) into the open space above the floor etc to use what would normally be unused wasted space that increases the amount of usable space for the frogs......But I wouldn't consider myself a newbie to trying to create usable space within a box with my past either.

So a 10g with a tall false bottom and a background that sticks out 3-4 inches from the glass would in my opinion never be enough space for a pair of D. tinctorius. Remove the back ground and it gets better. But again what is the "spatial needs" of D. tinctorius?
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And here's the real kicker.....the annual Petco and Petsmart tank sales. I think there may even be 2-4 sales EVERY YEAR for $1.00 a gallon, so there is NO reason a new hobbyist can say "I can only afford a 10 gallon".

20 Gallon highs and longs for $20.00 = perfect starter size and what "WE" recommend for starting out.

"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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Phelsuma Wrote:And here's the real kicker.....the annual Petco and Petsmart tank sales. I think there may even be 2-4 sales EVERY YEAR for $1.00 a gallon, so there is NO reason a new hobbyist can say "I can only afford a 10 gallon".

20 Gallon highs and longs for $20.00 = perfect starter size and what "WE" recommend for starting out.

True.....So in reality 10g tanks should be swept to the hobby dust bin as permanent vivs. Not only that but even at regular price 20gs and up are not that expensive.
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I have more and more wondered if Ed and Richard have an as of yet unannounced partnership on at least some level. Makes me shake my head. If anyone knows the answer to my wondering , please PM me.
All things equal, which is better for an adult breeding tank ...10 or 20? This conundrum, within a fortune cookie, wrapped in a "how many", gonna make my head hurt for days . :roll:
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.

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