Can we recommend 10 gallon tanks AT ALL ?

[Philsuma]

Here's how to DESTROY one argument of the "10 gallon tanks can be ok - they have been the "standard" and used for years and years, bla, bla..."

1. We must constantly move the hobby forward. Why on earth would someone ever Showcase a component of this argument with something that is 15-20 years old ? Should we argue that things were just fine without computers and there's really no need to upgrade to them.

2. Those same industry / hobby "standards" of the past 15-20 years failed to Shepard and safeguard vitally important species such as lehmani and histrionicus. I guess we should just keep doin' what they did huh ?

3. "There are some 20 gallon Vivariums that are set up more poorly than some 10 gallons". True and possible. I saw with my OWN eyes, Retics growing out and breeding in a plastic shoebox. Should I make a thread and sticky it for all new people to see and emulate ? It can be done, but does that make it right ? I don't think we need to be biologists to figure out two different size fishy tanks sitting side by side...as to which is "better".

[Azurel]

it's needs (behavioral, physiological and depending on species social)..

Quantify that for me into space i.e volume, cubic, 3d, 2d. I mean if I try a 75 gallon first and find these requirements then does that mean that is minimum space needed or do I to build vivs starting from 5 gallons until I see these unquantifiable spatial attributes.

[Philsuma]

^^^ are you trying for "Ed Speak", lol ?

[Azurel]

LOL.....No.

[RichFrye]

^^^ are you trying for "Ed Speak", lol ?

No, Jim's point was easily understood and had no ego driven ulterior motives.

[Tony]

I have more and more wondered if Ed and Richard have an as of yet unannounced partnership on at least some level. Makes me shake my head. If anyone knows the answer to my wondering , please PM me.

I asked a similar question in conversation with a mutual friend last night. :lol:

All things equal, which is better for an adult breeding tank ...10 or 20? This conundrum, within a fortune cookie, wrapped in a "how many", gonna make my head hurt for days . :roll:

No common sense allowed unless it is documented, peer reviewed, and published in a journal that charges no less than $15 for the privilege of reading the article.

[Michael Lawrence]

Fixing to toss my last thought in over there as I see it took off after I left. There is an issue to this I see that for some reason I have yet to get an answer for. 10 gallons may be what the zoo's, institutions and other petshops/ breeders have use but when your talking about setting a standard for what we all feel is a good start for NEW hobbyists its not the same. We all know that larger vivs are say 20-55 gallons are easier to maintain and better the chances of not having the aggression issues, standing water and drainage issues, ventilation issues and so on. It limits plant options, and then what Im guessing could even be stunted growth in larger frogs as smaller vivs do with some other herps. Again new hobbyists need to be helped but when you have a standing mentor to most on that board take up the fight for defending the ten gallon use it may just send new hobbyist the idea that going beyond the bare minimal is not needed. Cant advance off doing nothing.

Michael

[RichFrye]

Mike, You assume that those involved in those 'arguments' for 100 ten gallon tinc breeders are for advancing the hobby. At least a couple have stated they are not.
Hell, Richard Lynch wants to see the end of mankind (much less us in the hobby...) , and has stated as much. He states he needs to breed them in 10 because of lack of room. How about 50 -twenty gallon breeders instead?

Ed argues to argue and you'll find gems like this ;

Quote = ED
"Personally I like to see the trend towards larger enclosures as they provide some options not available or not easily accomplished in smaller enclosures..."


buried at the end of a post...where it should have taken priority at the beginning , before the newbies got bored with a three-thirty page diatribe .




Rich

[RichFrye]

I also wonder what PETA would think about a member who keeps 100 puppy mill ten gallon breeders...hmmmmm

[Michael Lawrence]

I said my part, I could care less on what else pops up but the end game will stay the same it will show who looks at this hobby more as a business venture over a hobby. Id be more than happy to meet Richard at a show and we could discuss this in person with other hobbyists and outsiders to see what they think. If you have a couple vivs 10 gallons or not your not an issue, Everyone has had a smaller viv but when you have 50+ of these ten gallons with tinc pairs you have no excuse for not going bigger. He has said it before its so he can have more frogs, my question is why? If you value yourself as a hobbyist and try and teach others your not leading with a good example. Its like teaching chemistry with the older outdated periodic table. Ideals change and advancements happen. Just because the zoos and institutions used something does not mean we cant promote better and improve upon it.

Maybe some type of test is in order. Anyone with a clutch of tincs for sale contact me. A controlled test is due.

Michael

[Tony]

Maybe some type of test is in order. Anyone with a clutch of tincs for sale contact me. A controlled test is due.

I have a few cobalts in the water and more eggs developing, assuming they make it I'll send you the froglets.

[RichFrye]

Everybody knows a 20 is a better choice than a 10 for any dart breeding purpose, all things equal. And neither Ed nor 'Brotherly Monkey' (whoever he is, I'm quite sure has not bred darts for very long, if at all) can prove otherwise.
But that's not what they are trying to say. BM is stuck on us proving a ten is inadequate (when we all know 20 is better) and Ed is stuck on professing his disdain for the "dogma" of 'go bigger when you can, it's better'.

They both (we all do) know that all things equal a larger tank has more room for micro-climates, mirco fauna, gradients of both humidity and heat, living space, better dilution of nasties, ect, ect...again, not their (not thier [sic] ) points. They want to argue semantics, not easy to deal with common sense.
It must come from all the darts they have personally been 100% responsible for and raised through the years...yeah, that's the ticket.

[Philsuma]

Once again....bringing up the past...."all those other froggers that have bred those frogs in 10 gallon tanks over the years...THEY have been successful".

I begrudgingly guess so for....Tincs

NOT for obligates though. Those husbandry methods and the "10 gallon tank size" didn't do squat for them. All those blue jeans, pumilio and histos that "didn't make it" in the 80's and 90's.

Lets not 'quote the past'.

[Philsuma]

[JJuchems]

NOT for obligates though. Those husbandry methods and the "10 gallon tank size" didn't do squat for them. All those blue jeans, pumilio and histos that "didn't make it" in the 80's and 90's.

Lets not 'quote the past'.

I disagree, I have Almirante, Bastis, Cristobal, and Cayo de Aqua producing in 10g. There are differences in husbandry techniques from the 80's and 90's from leaf litter, microfauna, and film canisters. These three keys to pumilio breeding were not as widespread. Tank size is just one piece of husbandry.

I have blue jeans 18x18x24 Exo Terra, they only use a fraction of the tank. I have stated before, I utilize 10G. Not all species can "fit" in to a 10G. My A. pepperi pair are in a 55G. Realistically, I believe they are best fitted for a 220-300G. My female can jump almost length to length of a 55G.

I have greatly reduced my tinc collection due to time (down to 6 pairs), and have switched to obligates.

[Michael Lawrence]

Jason your experience is well beyond that of a new hobbyist. Do you think actively teaching new hobbyists that 10 gallons are the optimal choice of use? Your new collection is worth a nice price so why skimp on the vivs? Is it a space issue or a hoarding/ breeding/ investment plan? When you have 50+ tens and keep adding to them with limited space it seems like your more of a jobber/mant to be frog farmer over a hobbyist.

Michael

[RichFrye]

NOT for obligates though. Those husbandry methods and the "10 gallon tank size" didn't do squat for them. All those blue jeans, pumilio and histos that "didn't make it" in the 80's and 90's.

Lets not 'quote the past'.

I disagree, I have Almirante, Bastis, Cristobal, and Cayo de Aqua producing in 10g.

Other's have as well, in the past. How many generations have you produced to? F?

There are differences in husbandry techniques from the 80's and 90's from leaf litter, microfauna, and film canisters. These three keys to pumilio breeding were not as widespread. Tank size is just one piece of husbandry.

And what are your personal reasons for breeding in 10's ? What benefits to the frogs and their generations have you personally found? Again, all things equal.

I have blue jeans 18x18x24 Exo Terra, they only use a fraction of the tank. I have stated before, I utilize 10G.

Ever watched your BJ's when the lights are out? I pretty much gaurantee that I could set up a viv that size which would be used in whole by a pair of BJs. I have a bit of experience in this.

I have greatly reduced my tinc collection due to time (down to 6 pairs), and have switched to obligates.

As someone who has been working with predominantly eggfeeders for the last seven years I can tell you simply moving your pums from tens to twenties , all things equal, will help in the long run and be benefitial to your frogs.

Rich

[RichFrye]

BTW Jason, do you use 'feeding stations'?

Rich

[Philsuma]

Hi Jason,

I have said several times that I have seen retics breeding ( do you equate breeding to husbandry success ?) in a shoebox size enclosure.

Do you really think that is optimal ?

Would you recommend that to others, specifically new hobbyists ?

Would you include that in a book on Dart Frogs ?

[JJuchems]

Money/investment, geckos have paid for the hobby of keeping frogs. The within the last years I have stopped gecko breeding, sold the collection (again time and career). Frogs are not the only thing I keep. I don't have 50+ 10g. I have WC and F1 frogs (pumilio) producing in 10G. In 6-8 months possibly F2 if I decide to keep them.

There are several variables that play in to a new hobbyist keeping frogs. 20 gallon is what I typically state and is in my book. However, one of my best friends growing up has kept and bred geckos for years. He wanted to start with dart frogs and wanted to do a 10 gallon tank. That is what I recommended for him, his space, and experience.

My Blue Jeans are in my dinning room, I see them all the time day/night same areas.

I have stated other places, I take in a lot of rescue animals and frogs are not the only animals I work with, space plays a large role. I am known in my area for keeping and working with exotics, and am a board member of the local herpetological society. With home foreclosures and economy many animals need homes, I help them find them. My local pet shops/animal control/herp society calls me to pick animals up. They don't even have room to take them in or will work with exotics.