Can we recommend 10 gallon tanks AT ALL ?

[Philsuma]

A 10 gallon tank is still too small for most all Dart Frogs. Why not just pay a tiny bit more for a 20 gallon ?

[Philsuma]

A breeding pair of thumbnails AND froglets in a 10 gallon size enclosure, that with furniture and hardscaping, is more like 7 gallons...no wonder a froglet or two dies.

I bet it sucumbed to stress - nohwere to go, no matter how well planted a 7 gallon tiny box is...

A 10 gallon fishy tank is only good for a grow-out or temp tank in my opinion.

[Rusty_Shackleford]

These are the same hobbyists buying tads to save a buck vs. buying an established, well started froglet.
This hobby isn't cheap. I don't know ANY hobbyists that is so loaded they can afford anything they want at anytime. But I've seen far too many wanting to buy small tanks, cheap tads, negotiate on shipping prices, etc. It's black and white in my book, if you can't afford it you can't afford it.
But if you only have 10 gallon tanks you can have more species on a cheaper budget within your first year.
Then when you can finally afford a 55 gallon tank, you can mix species.

[Philsuma]

Some would argue that almost all CB frogs should be considered 'disposable'. That we should produce as many as we can and literally flood the pet stores and reptile shows with them AND bring the price way down - as far down as possible.

This is a theory, that while having some merit and logic, fails in one key issue.It makes the frogs lives worthless due to the commonality (low prices) and people disrespect them and treat them much worse. It puts more 'strain' on the hobby and the people vested in it, as it does to alleviate the Wild caught collection efforts.

Captive breeding can truly be a double edged sword.

[Rusty_Shackleford]

I remember some years ago when I was active in the tropical fish hobby, there was some type of legislation introduced to require a prescription for some of the common drugs used to treat tropical fish. Basically this would have made all fish pretty much disposable. Who would want to pay a vet for an exam, get a prescription of newly regulated fish medicine all to save a $0.99 zebra danio.
While I realize dart frogs are not tropical fish, they aren't disposable either. There is quite an investment by those trying to raise quality captive bred frogs. Not only in obtaining good genetic stock, trying to keep lines pure and true, the effort it takes to raise some tads into froglets and then raise those froglets for months to make sure they are well established and truly ready for rehoming.
If the effort to drive down the price and mass produce then becomes successful it will be the end of this hobby.

[Philsuma]

I see we still have the '1 frog fits nicely per 5 gallon' people will alive and kicking. No many of them, mind you, but occasionally they surface. I think one of the best things this hobby 'ever did' was surmount that ol'e wives tale - the 5 gallon per, and all but put it out of it's misery.

[Philsuma]

Who says 10 gallons are 'bad practice' ?

Gee I dunno...how about you spend 24 months living out of a standard room at the econolodge and see how you feel ?

'Living space' is pretty self explanatory as to it's worth.

[joneill809]

This thread reminded me of an article a few years ago about the metabolism of dart frogs. The interview with one of the authors struck me:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201...134250.htm

"They acquire their alkaloid chemicals by eating ants and mites," Cannatella said.

Because of their picky diet, poisonous frogs have to forage far and wide for food. "Nontoxic species basically stay in one place and don't move very much and eat any insect that comes close to them," Santos said. "But the bright, poisonous frogs are very picky about what they eat."

"It's not like a buffet where they can get everything they need to eat in one place," Cannatella added. "Ants and mites are patchy, so the frogs have to move around more to find enough food."

This combination of toxic skin and bold colors -- a syndrome known as aposematism -- evolved in tandem with specialized diet and physical fitness multiple times across the poison frog family tree, the authors explained. In some cases the frogs' physical fitness may have evolved before their unusual diet, making it possible to forage for harder-to-find food. But the specific sequence of events was likely different for different branches of the tree, Santos said.

The findings appear in the March 28 issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
http://bama.ua.edu/~rlearley/Santos_2011.pdf

Interesting stuff. This would seem to be a strong argument against small permanent enclosures. I would like to see an article that looks specifically at the ranges in the wild of different species of dart frogs if anyone has come across one.

[Philsuma]

[Philsuma]

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it "

Followed closely by....

"It's been the Industry standard for years"

HEY..everyone...FORGET about PS4 Call of Duty / honor and come over and play some Atari games !!!

It WORKS right ? Nothing wrong with using something that works !! I hear Richard L from NY has one and plays ALL his games on it - so THERE !

No need to even think about a PS4

[Philsuma]

10 gallon size enclosures ?

I only use them for grow-outs or temp tanks.

Too small for pumilio.

[Philsuma]

DEATH to 10 gallon tanks! Seriously...only use them for temps or grow-outs.

A PAIR of pumilio in a ten gallon tank ? F' that. If you are too poor to be able to afford proper housing, get a goldfish instead. Skimping on a used tank? What's next, skimping on food and proper supplements???

[Dan1990]

Actually goldfish really even need a larger tank. 20gal minimum for one. 40 gal or bigger for multiples with a 15gal/fish min after the first.
#goldfishenthusiast

[Philsuma]

Two adult tinctorious in a 10 gallon fish tank??? Come on people FFS.

[morten müller]

General thinking is 10 gallons all too small.

But having said that, I know some hardcore people in the hobby that keeps some small color frogs species in 10 gallons / 30 liters, with great success.

Small species such as Excidobates captivus and Ranitomeya reticulata has been shown to function optimally in small breeding terrarium of 30x30x30 cm / 10 gallons.

A large terrariums are not always the best solution for small territorial species, the male protects its nest during breeding season and move hardly, microfauna and other feed insects can not find the way to the frogs in the same manner in a larger set-up and weight loss can easily occur.

[Philsuma]

General thinking is 10 gallons all too small.

But having said that, I know some hardcore people in the hobby that keeps some small color frogs species in 10 gallons / 30 liters, with great success.

Small species such as Excidobates captivus and Ranitomeya reticulata has been shown to function optimally in small breeding terrarium of 30x30x30 cm / 10 gallons.

A large terrariums are not always the best solution for small territorial species, the male protects its nest during breeding season and move hardly, microfauna and other feed insects can not find the way to the frogs in the same manner in a larger set-up and weight loss can easily occur.

Just because it CAN be done ,doesn't make it best practice. Remember, this thread/topic is about recommending ten gallon tanks to NEW hobbyists. To that end, I still say 100% no. Too small. Chances are, they will not design it / hardscape it correctly, heck we still see 90% of new hobbyists demand a stream and/ or waterfall in their first or second tank!

[Philsuma]

Hmmm, I just re read this thread from the beginning and I swore it was more geared towards recommendations of enclosure size to newer hobbyists. Anyhow, still a good discussion.