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Ethics in the Dart Frog Hobby - start thread
#61
The big thing, is....caution everyone against impulse buys online or at Reptile Shows.

Take time to read forums and since most new people are shy....PM the old-heads and the people with hundreds and thousands of posts. You will then get the straight scoop on stuff, if you are still confused or unsure of who is good, or what constitutes a bad frog.

I was proud to allow over 40 different froggers into my residence and personal frog room. I told them all where each and every frog came from without hesitation, if they asked....sometimes when they DIDN'T ask (you all know me by now).

Never be ashamed or have to lie about who / where you got your frogs. That's one of the quick litmus tests for Ethics. Do your due diligence. I can't imagine a viv in my house / care where that I would hide from people. One of the great joys in this hobby is the interaction both in person and on the forums. Take that away and what....you have a bunch of illegal frogs that you and your 'gangsta' friends enjoy. Not me.
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#62
Pedigrees are not nessa for ' Keeping honest people honest'...

they are.....#1...for keeping values and profit margins high. IMHO
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#63
Pretty much exactly.

Pedigrees are useful only to the extent that the person filling them out is honest; as long as the pedigree isn't blatantly false (black cat + black cat giving red kitten, for example), the registry the breeding is filed with has no way of knowing or proving that the breeding was actually performed between the animals in question.
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#64
99 percent of this hobby is trust.
When you find someone you can trust you are 99 percent there.
Deal with those we are all 100 percent certain are either dealing in UNETHICAL, UNETHICAL (even more important than illegal) frogs and you take away from the whole hobby and screw us all.
FAnybody who has been in the hobby for five , eight, ten years and claims ignorance is a liar.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#65
At what point is ignorance no longer an excuse? To say "I've been on the forums and keeping frogs for a year and I didn't know mixing was bad" doesn't cut it in my book. If you've been on the forums that long you should know better. It means you ARE an ignorant frog keeper. Just the same as the people who say "You can do whatever you want with your frogs" are supporting, if indirectly, that ignorance. There is no excuse for that irresponsible, unethical husbandry.
People, fellow froggers, wake up!! Take a stand. Call out those people with no ethics. It's your hobby too, don't sit on your hands.

Once again Phil, thank you for providing the ONLY forum, where no information is suppressed. Where the ugly topics can be brought out in the open and discussed. The frog hobby is already a step above most of the herp hobby in general. If it is to continue to evolve and stay a step ahead, these discussions are crucial.
Jon
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#66
Thanks Jon.....always appreciate the kind words, and you're right....I agree totally ^^
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#67
Keep fighting the good fight john ! You may THINK that you are alone, when you don't see others posting in support but in all actuality, you are doing such a good job that they are rallying behind you. Trust me, every little voice becomes loud and forms the basis of the hobby over time.

Without strong opinion, argument and discussion, all we are left with it:

1. Nice Froggy
2. Sweet Viv
3. Sorry 'bout yer loss
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#68
There are two (02) main dynamics are work in our hobby - Altruism / Conservation, or the act of 'trying to do better by these animals'. While conservation by it's literal definition is still debated as to it's effectiveness within our hobby, you cannot deny the percentage of people you will encounter here that are seriously wanting to play some sort of role in helping in a broader sense. And then we have #2 - Business and money. NOTHING is ever done in this entire planet without the need for cash and capital. Not health care or helping people. Not religion (no such thing as true 'non profit). Nothing proceeds forward without a dollar in mind. Now sometimes we also have an overlap, or a meeting of these two forces and that is NOT a problem. No one should begrudge anyone the right to earn. So based on that, I really don't think we have any true 'hate' here. A lot of these people have never met in person. We have business clashes over product and raised animals. We have people who are of such decent moral fiber and compass that they would rather eat a pine cone than deal with someone they feel is hurting the animals or the hobby. I like both examples, personally.

Now as for 'integrity'. I'm sure you'd get a BROAD definition of that word from all corners of the hobby membership and some answers would astound you. I'll try to bump my 'Ethics" thread to help me remember what is in there, here soon. The point here on integrity, is that a percentage of people think there is nothing wrong with accepting ANY frog from anyone. Another percentage - both larger than most people think, by the way, also believes that other than habitat destruction, there would be no way at all for any animal population to become extirpated by human hand collection...and so on and so on, all the way down to the percentage of hobbyists (small) that refuse to buy anything but captive born.
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#69
two PM's trying to 'pin me down' on my EXACT hobby /importation views...

Remember the 'black and white' , shades of grey. Only a fool or a child makes demands and statements that are "ALL one way or another'.

I would like to see LESS Panamanian importation.

Not ZERO.....less. AND more accountability, i.e CITES documentation on exact numbers of animals exported.

Would this raise the prices here in the U.S hobby ? Sure and goody goody. That will make the frogs 'more valuable' and not subject to bad conditions. People take much more CARE of an animal directly commensurate with it's perceived value.

We need imports for the Hobby. We just have to keep pushing and pushing...rewarding those who are 'trying to do it better' wherever and whenever we find them.
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#70
Philsuma Wrote:Would this raise the prices here in the U.S hobby ? Sure and goody goody. That will make the frogs 'more valuable' and not subject to bad conditions. People take much more CARE of an animal directly commensurate with it's perceived value.

Phil,

What do you think "fair" prices are? You were on the record saying you thought the $500 Paru's were too much money.

Me, I don't care about the price tag so much. I don't care what frog it is, as long as you don't have a death, you make your money back eventually. If you can afford a $35 frog fine, a $500 frog, that's fine too. I would think most start off with the lower number and work their way towards the larger number?
Glenn
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#71
frogfreak Wrote:
Philsuma Wrote:Would this raise the prices here in the U.S hobby ? Sure and goody goody. That will make the frogs 'more valuable' and not subject to bad conditions. People take much more CARE of an animal directly commensurate with it's perceived value.

Phil,

What do you think "fair" prices are? You were on the record saying you thought the $500 Paru's were too much money.

Me, I don't care about the price tag so much. I don't care what frog it is, as long as you don't have a death, you make your money back eventually. If you can afford a $35 frog fine, a $500 frog, that's fine too. I would think most start off with the lower number and work their way towards the larger number?

Hard to say what 'Fair' is / exact number. It's like judge potter said about pornography /obscenity - the definition. "I cannot define it but know it when I see it".

Same with smuggling. I can't write the book on how it's done exactly (maybe because I've never done it) but I know it get's done and it has to do with the $$$ frogs....not the smaller $35.00 ones.
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#72
Although cheap auratus are the most smuggled frog? The blue auratus didn't get smuggled out to extinction as they became more rare, although the theory is as they become more rare they get smuggled more till extinction. There are no "laws or rules" to smuggling. Some is opportunistic, some is targetted and some is fad.
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stonerSmile
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#73
Smuggling is dollar-driven and profit specific.

hundred dollars + frogs get smuggled.

$10.00- $35.00 each frogs ? I seriously doubt it
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#74
Look it up. Auratus is the most smuggled. I don't see any auratus for over $100. I did see lots of wild caught. Maybe a bunch of them were smuggled and covered under the imports.
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stonerSmile
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#75
Roadrunner Wrote:Look it up. Auratus is the most smuggled. I don't see any auratus for over $100. I did see lots of wild caught. Maybe a bunch of them were smuggled and covered under the imports.

Would you mind citing or linking your source for this info?

-Christian Powell


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#76
Ed.......
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stonerSmile
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#77
Roadrunner Wrote:Ed.......

So you're stating that Ed is your source?


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#78
Yes.....
"I don't want to believe, I want to know" Carl Sagan(my fav. stonerSmile
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#79
Ed, if you're reading this can you please link your source for information? I'd like to see the figures/stats.

-Christian Powell


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#80
Ed goes off of CITES stats.
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