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It all comes down to percentages. I don't care how great Robb M and Eric M and Robert N were. The percentages of success MUST have been lower back then. Must have been. We have 3-4 guys with huge obligate success for every one of those mentioned above, so the success today is higher today. Percentages.
No one, not even Chris Sherman is saying that NO old lines survived. We are only saying the number of 1990's surviours has GOT to be small.
Example
1990's
1,000 large obligates imported - 891 dead, 109 produced some progeny
2000's
1,000 large obligates imported - 566 dead, 434 produced some progeny
percentage example ^^^
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goods Wrote:Why are you fairly certain that there was less variety than there are today?
goods Wrote:There are certain locales that have come in as a whole after the legal importations of these old lines,
Not trying to be crass here, but did you not answer your own question?
I can not do any better myself.
Chris Sherman
One big methane burp from the ocean could make everything here obsolete.
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Sherman Wrote:I suspect some of these have only recently been bred in the 90s. 
Well, maybe I already did.
I am making no accusations and would certainly like to keep this thread light. It is a call out for closeted information. As we are seeing more and more public postings, both classified and simple "look at my frog" threads, the utility of this information becoming public is becoming increasingly obvious. People make these posts then seemingly get upset that people ask questions when there is very little information publicly available.
goods Wrote:I'm also very well aware of extremely innovative people who successfully kept and bred dart frogs in the US in the 80s. These same people (one was mentioned) had success with those 90s large obligates and kept diverse selections of them.
Not all people, myself included, have this information. (I believe you, by the way.) I'm just trying to have the conversation.
Chris Sherman
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I am wondering if crickets were the norm in feeding these frogs in the 90's, then I would think the crickets were gut loaded. When I kept lizards in the 90's it was common practice to gut load the crickets. This procedure would have been beneficial to the frogs health.
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Coqui Wrote:I am wondering if crickets were the norm in feeding these frogs in the 90's, then I would think the crickets were gut loaded. When I kept lizards in the 90's it was common practice to gut load the crickets. This procedure would have been beneficial to the frogs health.
Not to derail but chuckled over your statement, maybe Mark's MJ theory...
Sherman no offense, with no lineage info and yes the large obligates are more transparent now, which is a good thing... plus Tesores imports. Nice frogs, do I want to throw 3-5 K for unsexed or even sexed frogs?
Nope...
My .02 is wait, watch and deal with those that have been in the hobby a while with references.
-Beth
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Coqui, not the crickets I was expecting. 
Beth,
I do not understand what you are saying.
I am not contemplating a purchase of any of these frogs.
As for Tesoros de Colombia, trying to straighten out these other lines is against my normal "promote the crap out of them" tendencies. It would be better for their sales if I just cast further doubt on the grey area animals and claimed that theirs are the only 100% legit animals available. I'm trying to be fair. I believe that people have some good frogs and I am trying to help them clear the air.
I guess I never really thought this would be productive, but I tried.
Chris Sherman
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Coqui Wrote:I am wondering if crickets were the norm in feeding these frogs in the 90's, then I would think the crickets were gut loaded. When I kept lizards in the 90's it was common practice to gut load the crickets. This procedure would have been beneficial to the frogs health.
Crickets are not a good food source for Oophaga. I don't think even large terriblis should be given them. The list of bad things is long - possible impaction to coccidia among others.
Gut loading is decent on some levels, but it pales in comparison to the engineered dusting supplements of today.
Crickets are not a normal prey item for dart frogs. In the wild they eat TINY insects - a lot of ants and mites. Very small stuff, that's why fruit flies are such a good staple food for captive breeding. They best approximate the small size and consistency of what they would normally eat in the wild.
Crickets contributed to the death of a ton of those 1990's oophaga, IMO. A very bad food source for dart frogs.
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Sherman, I would not say it wasn't productive. Any Information that comes from these discussions should always be welcome.
Maybe, some forum members that have some of these frogs might have some documentation that they will share. I myself have a beautiful pair of Red Heads that were acquired by a well respected forum member, unfortunately I do not have any documentation to share.
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Coqui Wrote:I myself have a beautiful pair of Red Heads that were acquired by a well respected forum member, unfortunately I do not have any documentation to share.
Everyone's old line frogs come from anonymous (but good, so trust me and don't ask) sources.
I still hold hope that this thread will produce some good information, but that would take some of those old timers to post their experiences here. I do not see that happening. They have withdrawn from the forums long ago and I don't think that my request will be enough to coax a response.
Happy frogging,
Chris Sherman
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I see what you are trying to do Chris - promoting Tesoros frogs by trying to elevate them above the others.
It won't work.
Take another look at my 'Jack the Ripper' thread. Then look at that 'rare amphibian' classifieds stuff. Nobody cares. They only want the newest, shiniest, rare-est, what-ever-you-don't have-est frogs around. They don't care where they came from.
So by trying to 'do some good' and get some facts and understand how things work....you piss people off.
As soon as you ask a question, its 'he's stirring shit up' !! and suddenly you are a bad person.
Stay the course. Follow your heart. Do what you feel is right. Don't worry about the flak from naysayers and pissed off people because if they are such people, they weren't truly your friends anyway.
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More thoughts:
There are reasons why the 'old heads' will not be forthcoming about their large obligate info:
1. They do not want to divulge their sources by adding the lineage name. This does two things. It doesn't allow for tons of people to see the lineage name and then start scouring the interwbz for that persons contact info to bug them about getting some.
It also doesn't allow for those people to 'bump' in line and offer big cash for frogs that they may not be able to handle and kill.
2. Announcing a ton of the rare large obligate info is scary to most people. If I had a collection of 50 vivs , all with rare stuff , the last thing I would want to do is spread that info around. Burglary is a serious concern amongst a lot of people.
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So to summarize. There IS a whole different set of 'rules' and social aspects inherent with keeping the rare-er stuff.
Different part of the hobby. Different guidelines IMO.
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Philsuma Wrote:I see what you are trying to do Chris - promoting Tesoros frogs by trying to elevate them above the others. smh
Phil, you are wrong.
If you do not see the sincerity in this, you don't know me very well.
They (Tesoros, WIKIRI, UE and the like) do not need me to elevate them. This has been an attempt to publicly legitimize other good frogs that could use a lift out of the fog. Period.
I accept that attempting this was quite naive. Your other comments make sense.
Chris Sherman
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bet you could count surviving lines from the 90's of these frogs on one hand (maybe 2 fingers), anyone lucky enough to get healthy frogs to start with coupled with proper husbandry (for back then), reproduction was low, viability was poor, I am surprised that the 2 or 3 I think I know of are still around. I think the vast majority of these old school frogs come from early to mid 2000 imports. I could be wrong but a surprising number of animals have showed between probably '02 and '12 or so, most pretty much unannounced and I speculate here very few with CITES documents.
I would submit buying legal imports is head and shoulders the way to go however if frogs are here and being bred by the ones that have them going, more power to them providing CB rare animals. I wouldn't turn down 3 or 4 young CB Lita. Are there different rules for those that keep them, outside of secrecy no....and yea I used to know the hand shake but not any more
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Chris,
My apologies. I was wrong.
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