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Oophaga pumilio - aggression with adults and froglets
#1
I currently have a pair of pums with 2-4 froglets in the viv. Its difficult to know exactly how many as its pretty grown in, I've been watching and have never seen more than 2 froglets at a time, but, based on size and coloring think i have more than 2. These were moved into a new tank some time back, these froglets came ootw just before christmas and they were from the first "known" clutch in the viv. This clutch was laid within 2 weeks of them getting their new home. They are about 1/3 the size of the parents now at 2 months ootw. There has been however a couple times now (2 or 3) where i thought i saw a larger froglet, but could have been mistaken, and with the "timing" of everything, did not see how it would have been possible for an older, larger one to be in there. Just today (2x now) i saw what i thought was aggression with the male, but, i could also see 2 froglets which means either i do have a larger froglet, or it was twords my female. Ive seen courting, ive seen mom and dad "step on" the little ones, and in another case, with different pums have seen what males do to each other, this was a mini mma match i saw today, dad jumping on the back of another one, grabbing hold and rolling down the hill, but i'll add, I saw dad calling right before he jumped on, but did not get a clear view at frog #2. They were in a hard to see spot...

Now yesterday, i transfered another male out of qt into a viv directly below this one, and im not 100% sure but have heard slightly different calling, and think its him. So, here is my question (finally). Is it possible that the calling of another male in a different viv could be stimulating an aggressive response in a male in a different viv and he is mistakenly taking it out on the female, or, could i have a larger froglet in there and its time to get it out?

Sorry for the long post, but i wanted to describe the situation as best i could.
Derek
1.5 kids and a bunch of frogs
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#2
Hi Derek,

I have seen this many, many times with my pumilio. Adults will jump on, step on and give an annoying call to the froglets and when all is said and done, the Adults or froglets go their seperate ways and even begin to feed right after the altercation.

I think all that contact can be considered normal and common. NOW, the hobbyist can always er'e on the side of caution and seperate out the froglets when this type of contact is observed, especially when seen more than just occasionaly. When pumilio reach "sub-adult hood" @ the 4-6 month age, that seems to be the time when most pumilio keepers are recommending speration. Sooner than that and there are some risks that the froglets will not thrive.
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#3
I dug up some pics i took just before i moved them in, and they were from july 17, 2010. Making it possible that i missed a clutch and there very well could be an older froglet in there. Have you ever seen it where the male goes after a female aggressively?
derek
1.5 kids and a bunch of frogs
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#4
hmmm...not sure I remember seeing a male vs female battle. Usually only male / male and somewhat less common - female / female.

Anything can happen, I guess.

I like to keep 1.2 adults in all my breeder groups.
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#5
Frustrating. These are the first ones ive gotten ootw and i dont want to mess it up, I keep doing head counts Smile. They are those tuss line darklands i've mentioned to you before Phil. I'm suprised with how differently they are colored (the froglets), one is waaaaay lighter than the other. When it was a tad in the brom i remember being suprised at how vibrant the blue was on this little guy. They already have atleast 2 more going now. With in a week of them coming ootw, there was another fertile clutch, and a week after that, another. Its amazing. The fertile ones she seems to lay lower in the tank, on the same leaf. When shes just "droppin" eggs she does it higher up in the viv.
1.5 kids and a bunch of frogs
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#6
I have personally seen male/female altercations. My male basti is very aggressive. I haven't seen it in a while though. I have also seen him pic on some froglets.
R/O Basti, Darklands, El Dorado, Chiriqui Grande, Cristobal, Cayo, Man Creek
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#7
During misting/feeding plenty of times I saw female to male and vise versa Escudo jumping on the back and "riding", as well as adults doing it to froglets, they all seem to go on about their business feeding after a couple of seconds though -
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#8
I like pulling mine when I see them eating ff'ys, have not had any deaths and feel the risk of aggression toward the froglets is higher than when they are separated and put in a grow out viv heavily seeded with springtails.

-Beth
-Beth
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#9
Ive been debating in my head and reading up on when to pull them. They've been eating f.f. for a while now...
I dont yet understand what the thinking is behind leaving them in the viv as long as whats recommended. I can see when they are just ootw and for a period of time there after, not wanting to "stress" them out, but to leave them in for up to 4 to 6 months i dont understand fully. They would then be competing with other younger froglets for food etc...I want to follow the advice of the "mentors" (as thats what i consider you guys) at the same time though I'm not one to do something just because somebody says so, I like to know why...
Insert "use search function" post next Smile
Nice to see you here Beth.
Derek
1.5 kids and a bunch of frogs
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#10
Hi Derek Smile
I do not see the reasoning begind leaving them in the viv for 6 mos. at that age it is possible to interbreed and probable aggression.
Rich and I have talked about when to pull pums on several occasions, not to speak for him but he pulls his early as well.
-Beth
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#11
Thanks Beth, off topic, did you get a pm from me? ive tried sending a couple to various people, they are not in my out box, and nobody has replied. It was working a couple days ago though...
Sorry Phil for going off track.
Derek
1.5 kids and a bunch of frogs
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#12
Happy day...just looked in a brom and i see the next one ready to come out, front legs have popped...
fun times.
Derek
1.5 kids and a bunch of frogs
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#13
No need to try to lock into a time frame....4-6 months works different for different people AND different size vivs.

The important thing that I take from reading tons of pumilio posts, is that no one I can remember is recommending pulling them early and when they are small. They fail to "do well" and just don't thrive when pulled too early.

I retain all the other "time frame" stuff, for pure reference and adjust, like most all care and husbandry methods, as needed.
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#14
True Phil, this is a topic based on our personal experience etc. Not to be a hard head about it but IMO once they are eating ff's they can be pulled and put in a growout viv with plenty of springs, I will admit some morphs could be different than others up to the keeper to judge the difference.
-Beth
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#15
There will always be some perceived "aggression" with regards to the adult male / offspring aspect of husbandry.

But, I would not be so hasty as to say the adult male is "killing" them. Stepping on them, chasing them ect, all seems to be pretty natural to me. Now, I must admit that if I continually saw it and there was a failure to feed ect, then I would separate.

That's one of the reasons pumilio are not considered a beginner species.
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana".
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#16
I too have more vivs/parents Harrassing offspring when its feeding time. I also see parent beating offspring to springs everytime I dump some in there. Ever since I went to my method, I can actually say Ive had a 98% survival rate(2% assuming are good at hiding as I havent seen but not found dead) I simPly have a 40gal with abg, high leaf litter, 3 large breeder broms on the ground vertically, and heavily seeded. Every 3 days, I will dust a good amount of d3 rep, and feed that. Everything seems to be thriving and growing at an exceptional rate. in other words...so far so good

As Soon as I see froglets make their way down and out of the axils, that is when I will transfer to the froglet tank
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