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What is "Frog Flipping" ?
#41
I see what you are saying about the term not being black and white but I don't think there's anything we can do about that. The very act of all husbandry is full of grey - some people take arguably *better* care of their charges than others and not all vivariums are well constructed either. There will always be some businesses and breeders that are excellent, very good, fair, so-so, poor and horrible, so we can't say a "Flipper" is _______ and be done with it. "Flipping" an overall, fluid, encompassing term, I'm afraid. And the word itself ? I think even if we wanted to, and tried on this very forum, to change it to some other term...it wouldn't work. It seems well rooted in the hobby by now, IMO.

Stu...I didn't make up the term. At least not that I'm aware of.... I tried to include examples and definitions of what I feel it is and is not in my 12 or so posts here in this thread. I know it's a hard to define term (as evidenced by the argument from several other hobbyists) but what is it that you are unclear of exactly ?
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#42
Just thought of this....

Stu...in the U.S right now, we have 2-3 television shows that use the word / term "Flip". All the shows are about someone buying a house and then fixing it up and selling it very quickly. The term in the Real Estate biz is not actually negative. The ACT of buying low and quickly selling again for profit is the crux of this issue. Real Estate and houses don't die and carry disease. That's the difference.

Does that make it clearer ?
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#43
Philsuma Wrote:Just thought of this....

Stu...in the U.S right now, we have 2-3 television shows that use the word / term "Flip". All the shows are about someone buying a house and then fixing it up and selling it very quickly. The term in the Real Estate biz is not actually negative. The ACT of buying low and quickly selling again for profit is the crux of this issue. Real Estate and houses don't die and carry disease. That's the difference.

Does that make it clearer ?
Yeah i was clear Phil when i made the post above^ You explained this to me and i have a hunch put this thread up after me quizzing you . I was not clear the first time i heard the term used here on this forum probably not long after you made us so welcome,it was to then, when i first asked you what this term meant that, i was referring. I also asked about shotgunning if i remember correct.
What i was trying to get across is that others starting out might not get this "frog flipping" term at first just like i didn't,but not everyone is prepared to say i don't understand this like i am.
Bill's termanology is self explainitory,to all
Quite funny Phil Shaz just learned over and said,"what the hell is frog flipping," and i said "darling its someone that doesn't deal ethically in their frogs",ahh thats strange" was the reply " I've never heard of that before".
Once again our slight language barrier,or just me :roll: has put some confusion between us mate where there really isn't any.
In any hobby there is jargon used that has to be learned even moreso with different countries envolved,i suspect as you say the term will stay stateside at least.I suspect most of my countrymen won't understand it at first.

Phil what make your forum so cool amongst lots of other things is your patience to keep trying to help folks understand all this stuff,you have just selflessly made two attempts to make things clearer for me,before i had even had chance to reply,
Dude that in my humble opinion is pretty damn cool,
THANKYOU
Stu
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#44
I should add i do undestand the details of the above thoughtful debate aswell buddy
regards
Stu
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#45
Don't feel bad Stu. I too had no clue what a flipper was and still am not 100% clear. Ha! :lol:

What category doe's this fit into then?

What about a guy that buys up frogs that have been bred by a hobbyist and then resells. He sells for a profit, but is also doing the hobbyist a favour selling the frogs for them. A lot of hobbyists do this as they don't have to line up buyers. It's very common, I'm thinking. Is this classified as "Flipping" too. Seller is happy, Buyer is happy and the frogs are happy...

Where's the "Thinking" Emoticon. :wink:
Glenn
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#46
For those who don't yet get the flipping thing, substitute flipper for business person in this post I wrote almost a year ago.

It boils down to this:

There is a fairly 'visable' line right in the middle of all the dart frogs being sold or offered for trade.

On one side are the hobbyists, on the other the business people.

If you live on the hobby side , you can venture into the business side and play around, but you live in Hobbyland.

If you live in Businesville you can also venture once and awhile into Hobbyland, but you live in the business end of darts.

If you are 100% fine with "it's just a job", from a flipper or a jobber or someone who just wants to make as many sales to whomever possible, buy from a business man or woman.

If you care about the frogs, their lineage, their health and well being, and care about where the hobby is going and where it should be, don't support business people, support the hobby.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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#47
Stu&Shaz Wrote:I should add i do undestand the details of the above thoughtful debate as well buddy
regards
Stu

Quite welcome Stu....most people want me to shut up :wink:

Rich's explanation about business is dead on as well.

Business is fine, but when you compromise animal health and hurt the hobby more than help it...THAT'S Flipping.
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#48
frogfreak Wrote:Don't feel bad Stu. I too had no clue what a flipper was and still am not 100% clear. Ha! :lol:

What category doe's this fit into then?

What about a guy that buys up frogs that have been bred by a hobbyist and then resells. He sells for a profit, but is also doing the hobbyist a favour selling the frogs for them. A lot of hobbyists do this as they don't have to line up buyers. It's very common, I'm thinking. Is this classified as "Flipping" too. Seller is happy, Buyer is happy and the frogs are happy...

Where's the "Thinking" Emoticon. :wink:

Don't feel bad Glenn. I'm sure what I consider a flipper differs greatly from greats 'in the hobby'. But It's a safe bet you and I are on the same page. :wink:
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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#49
We can carry on all conversations here on this forum. If you are too lazy to cut and paste and bring it back here...just stay over there and carry on your discussion / argument . I won't lose any sleep. Links to other sites detract from continuing the conversation here.

and jeeze....don't blow another Fuse Rich...it's the Holidays Big Grin ...cheer up.
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#50
Not too lazy, per your request Phil;
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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#51
What Should We Expect From Sellers?

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Curious as to what 'advanced' froggers expects of sellers, be they via interweb storefront, or show sales, pertaining to selling to known children, many of which are buying their very first frogs. many of which are not ready for darts.
How much resposibility falls on the child, and how much on the adult/s selling to the child?




before I can answer you'd have to define children. Are we purely talking about age or does the 20 year old hasn't really crossed into adulthood also count as a child?
Leo Skiba


I think it is more of an issue of case by case. I know some kids who are a lot more mature than others. I run my own business and last summer had some younger high school age guys working for me and they worked better than some of the college guys I had. I would also think that the price tags on the frog would keep kids from just buying frogs without doing some research first, I dont know many kids that will go out and spend a few hundred to get a group of frogs, tank, supplies, etc.

With that being said though, I would hope that the seller would also make sure the parents realized the needs of the animals, and had also educated themselves as to what their kids were getting them into. Obviously at a show it is much easier to do this than with an online transaction, though with all the programs out now for parents to be able to watch what their kids are doing, I would hope the parents would be watching and I would guess it would be their credit card being used to pay for the animals.

Really in the end, I dont think darts are any more difficult than a fish tank. If anything I think they are a little easier after having many fish tanks at one point. I mist the tanks every other day or so, feed the adults 3ish times a week, make flies once a week and thats about it. Given I also mess with my plants and do other stuff, but there is no need for it, I just like taking care of the plants too.


Originally Posted by Spectre66
before I can answer you'd have to define children. Are we purely talking about age or does the 20 year old hasn't really crossed into adulthood also count as a child?

In the most recent cases I am talking about children under the legal driving age who are not ready to own darts , yet are sold them without question.
Ethically I don't care if you are a 100 year old manchild and want darts but not ready, I'm not selling.



Quote:
Originally Posted by therizman2
I think it is more of an issue of case by case. I know some kids who are a lot more mature than others. I run my own business and last summer had some younger high school age guys working for me and they worked better than some of the college guys I had. I would also think that the price tags on the frog would keep kids from just buying frogs without doing some research first, I dont know many kids that will go out and spend a few hundred to get a group of frogs, tank, supplies, etc.

It is case by case, absolutelty. How about those sellers who ask zero questions from children? Who sell to anybody with cash?


Quote:
Originally Posted by therizman2
With that being said though, I would hope that the seller would also make sure the parents realized the needs of the animals, and had also educated themselves as to what their kids were getting them into. Obviously at a show it is much easier to do this than with an online transaction, though with all the programs out now for parents to be able to watch what their kids are doing, I would hope the parents would be watching and I would guess it would be their credit card being used to pay for the animals.

Thanks for the parent factor, I did not mention that . Good point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by therizman2

Really in the end, I dont think darts are any more difficult than a fish tank. If anything I think they are a little easier after having many fish tanks at one point. I mist the tanks every other day or so, feed the adults 3ish times a week, make flies once a week and thats about it. Given I also mess with my plants and do other stuff, but there is no need for it, I just like taking care of the plants too.

Here's where you lose me. And I've had everything from discuss to reef.
A "fish tank" , at least any I've owned, can be left for weeks on end unattended. Sometimes months or more.
Does the average fish tank need live cultured foods? You can pretty much automate "fish tanks" 100% these days, not so with the average dart tank. I really , really don't want a newbie pointing to this post saying "look, so and so says they are easier than my guppy tank...". Not good.


Rich


My main question in this thread .
How does the advanced darter view other advanced darters selling anything to anybody. No questions asked? Throwing children into the mix should cement the feeling.


Rich Frye

Originally Posted by Rich Frye
It is case by case, absolutelty. How about those sellers who ask zero questions from children? Who sell to anybody with cash?



Thanks for the parent factor, I did not mention that . Good point.



Here's where you lose me. And I've had everything from discuss to reef.
A "fish tank" , at least any I've owned, can be left for weeks on end unattended. Sometimes months or more.
Does the average fish tank need live cultured foods? You can pretty much automate "fish tanks" 100% these days, not so with the average dart tank. I really , really don't want a newbie pointing to this post saying "look, so and so says they are easier than my guppy tank...". Not good.


Rich

Personally I think questions should be asked of anyone buying darts, and when I am selling at shows, I always do ask questions to at least make sure the basics are covered. Some people view selling the frogs purely as a business though, and I can understand where they come from. Not saying I necessarily agree or disagree with some of their practices, but business is business. When you are in it for the hobby side, it is completely different. Hobbyists want to see their animals thrive and live a good life, a business owner is just that, a business owner who needs to make a profit in order to sustain their business. Yes, this might be disappointing, but it is America after all, land of the free... right?

Well I guess it depends on the type of tank. I had some very heavily planted high tech planted tanks, and I couldn't walk away from them for more than a day or two without dosing, or checking levels. So I guess it depends on the type of fish tank we are talking about, and more so the point I was trying to make is that once the tank is established, it isn't super difficult to take care of. And once you get used to culturing fruit flies, they aren't really that difficult to take care of, I have been culturing for 6 years and I have never had any cultures crash except for Hydei and that was simply because the humidity in my room got too low and it takes them too long to produce since I don't keep them in a sterlite. I am in no way saying it is easier than a guppy tank, I am just saying that the amount of time it takes to take care of darts is similar to the amount of time that you need to commit to a fish tank IF you are properly taking care of it.

Someone has to make this conversation fun





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The 'children' part threw me off. There's a nice kid on DB who researched for a couple years before getting his first darts. He's asked lots of questions, built an awesome viv, and finally got his first frogs. I would have no problem selling frogs to that kid.

If I was going to sell frogs, I would carefully select the people who purchase them. But, I'm not in the business of selling frogs, so, I can be selective like that. Someone in the 'frog' business might not be able to put off sales like that.

I don't know. I guess I expect the frog seller to make sure the buyer at least knows the basics (if selling in shows. not as easy when selling from a website). I also expect the frog seller to know enough about the frogs they are selling to make sure they can accurately advise the buyer. Really, a written guide to go along with the frogs would be a good idea.




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Just so people don't keep bringing up the fact that their are wunderkind out there.
I personally have learned more dart info via phone conversations from a genius by the name of Alexander S. than from any adult, hands down. Alexander was 15 when I first started learning from him. Don't think I'm ignorant to the fact of such wunderkind.

Once again, I'm talking about those advanced breeders who sell to chidren who are not ready for darts, and ask zero questions of anybody, other than "how will you be paying for this?"




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This subject is right about where the hobbyists split off from the business minded. Knowing where the froglets you raised go and wanting to know if the buyer knows what they are doing no matter their age is something I do pay attention to. Ive refused both sales and trades to people I viewed as not prepared to take on the responsibility of keeping the frogs in atleast a simple healthy manner. If an irresponsible ill prepared person buys the frogs the chance they get reintroduced back into the hobby with all known lineage not to mention healthy is very slim. Many of these frogs just die.

Michael
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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#52
Yup, legality in business, vs. ethics of the hobby. Not to be confused with each other.



Rich Frye


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That gos to say that I don't put all business's in this category of being careless about who gets their frogs but the word business pretty much means profit intended and heavy sales are a part of that. They may start out doing the right thing but it usually ends with the same first one with money gets the frogs.
Its simple and usually easy to see who fits into what category. I'm working on putting my time into helping new hobbyists which means questioning their preparedness to take on frogs but if others did this as well it would be viewed as a hobby that cares and teaches first instead of your usual comments here and there that some of us are just too arrogant and only want to hear ourselves talk.

Michael


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I think if you're going into the deal with big expectations of the seller you're going to get burned. This doesn't only pertain to darts. As a buyer at a flea market (which is what I consider most of the reptile shows) if I buy something I put the responsibility on myself to know what I'm buying and honestly I do not expect much. Buyer beware! If the frog dies on me 2 months later, I'm not the kind that will bitch and moan that I got jibbed and post 200 threads on the net about it bashing the seller.

As a seller, I'm fanatical about making sure the customer is happy and has a way to get in contact with me in case of trouble. I expect a lot from myself but not have much in terms of expectations from others... I go by the saying...if you know how to count - count on yourself!


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To me it's less about asking people questions and more about listening to their stories and the questions they ask.

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I have sold to a few kids but only after I knew they had a tank set up the right way and had plenty of food available befroe they got the frogs. I basically told them how I do it and try and mimic, which a few have. I also used to like following up with anyone I sent frogs to but the apethetic attitude out there is amazing..this from seasoned hobbyists. I can't tell you how many experienced people I have sent frogs to that don't even bother to let me know the frogs arrived in good shape. Usually I follow up and ask but a couple of times I did not just to see if they would ever say anything....and no it never seemed to cross their mind. Those are the type of people I won't sell to even though I know they are fully capable of taking care of the frogs, to me they take the passion out of the hobby.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markpulawski
I have sold to a few kids but only after I knew they had a tank set up the right way and had plenty of food available befroe they got the frogs. I basically told them how I do it and try and mimic, which a few have. I also used to like following up with anyone I sent frogs to but the apethetic attitude out there is amazing..this from seasoned hobbyists. I can't tell you how many experienced people I have sent frogs to that don't even bother to let me know the frogs arrived in good shape. Usually I follow up and ask but a couple of times I did not just to see if they would ever say anything....and no it never seemed to cross their mind. Those are the type of people I won't sell to even though I know they are fully capable of taking care of the frogs, to me they take the passion out of the hobby.
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Last edited by dmartin72; 02-03-2011 at 12:16 PM.





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IMO a dart frog seller should know the frogs they're selling. Hopefully they've bred them themselves and can offer the info. I think it's the responsibility of the educated customer to ask those questions and come with a notepad to write the info down. I would not blame the seller one bit if someone came to the table, paid full price and did not ask any questions and walked away with the frogs. If the buyer shows no interest, why should the seller care. Do you think that doing a 10 min interview before you sell the frogs is going to be a realistic thing to do at shows? Those are some Utopian ideals. It all comes down to an educated buyer. If you're an impulsive, unaware and uneducated newbie expect to get ripped off - IT"S YOUR FAULT - You deserve to get ripped off. Maybe next time you'll learn.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty
I would not blame the seller one bit if someone came to the table, paid full price and did not ask any questions and walked away with the frogs. If the buyer shows no interest, why should the seller care.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty
As a seller, I'm fanatical about making sure the customer is happy and has a way to get in contact with me in case of trouble. I expect a lot from myself but not have much in terms of expectations from others... I go by the saying...if you know how to count - count on yourself!

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Last edited by dmartin72; 02-03-2011 at 12:17 PM.


dmartin72



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I posted a similar question on the other sight. I was approached by a guy here at work to build a viv, complete with frogs, for his son (i think he was 11). I knew the guy i worked with had a background in reefs, but never herps of any kind. I was a little apprehensive. Eds response to my post was, i thought, the most insightful. To summarize, he felt that introducing the kid to the hobby far outweighed the possible negative outcome. You never know where it may lead him.

In the end, my coworker and his son loved the frogs, but, his wife didnt, so, i bought the tank back and the frogs were fat, happy and fine. I typed up a care sheet etc... for them, provided supplements, even a misting bottle.

In my opinion, its would be the sellers responsibility to steer the buyer in an appropriate direction with their frog selection (leucs vs. pums) and provide as much info as possible. My sheet had websites, my phone # etc... personally, no offense meant, but id rather sell to a kid with a couple of watchful parents than a college kid whos going to shuffle them between mom and dads house and the dorm room.
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Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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#53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmartin72
You obviously do it as a seller and I applaud you.

Yes, but as a buyer, my best insurance policy is to know what I'm getting myself into. If I screw up, because of my laziness - I'm just going to blame myself. I'm going to do my best to rely on the seller as little as possible and that's what I would advise any buyer. On the other hand, I'd advise every seller to do as much as possible for their customers.

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#22 01-28-2011, 02:27 PM
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I think a lot of focus could be on the image of the dart frog hobby. If we represent ourselves as responsible sellers who take care of our animals, the likely response we will get from buyers is a willingness to take initiative and learn themselves. Even if people at shows buy darts and know nothing about them, a vendor who can at least pass out a care sheet and recommend that they visit a dart frog forum to learn is doing them a favor. There's no need for a 10-minute discussion, show vendors don't have time for that anyway since they need to watch the table and moneybox.

A lot of folks, when buying high-end animals, may be turned off from buying by a lack of professionalism in general. This is certainly something I look for when buying, above all else. A good businessman knows how to treat potential customers, and I don't buy from those who don't understand that concept.

When selling, I look at the buyer and carefully consider to whom I'm entrusting my frogs. If that person is going around from ad to ad buying up tons of frogs at one time, I'm probably going to say . I think as a good general practice the hobby would be healthier by following such practices. Fewer would have to worry about getting ripped off if there were protocol in place for education of the customer.
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#23 01-28-2011, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty
Yes, but as a buyer, my best insurance policy is to know what I'm getting myself into. If I screw up, because of my laziness - I'm just going to blame myself. I'm going to do my best to rely on the seller as little as possible and that's what I would advise any buyer. On the other hand, I'd advise every seller to do as much as possible for their customers.

Marty

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#24 01-28-2011, 02:37 PM
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#25 01-28-2011, 03:06 PM
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Little bit of info I lived by in this hobby. If I did not know the breeder I asked for a pic or asked to see the breeding pair or group. I If they did not breed them its likely they cant prove the lineage and in some cases ''KS Classifieds'' the species is wrong.
Its also a good idea to ask how they are keeping them, what they are feeding them and other common things that can send a frog down a parasite ridden track or a vitamin deficiency. I myself always offer info to buyers in hopes that they are prepared and if not that they will ask about proper care.

Michael
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#26 01-28-2011, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmartin72
Another question...do shows have a meeting with their vendors ahead of time explaining/suggesting a basic guidelines when selling frogs?

David

AT the shows in Utopia they do sorry, couldn't resist it. Assumption at shows is that you're a big boy and you can handle your business affairs yourself without hand holding. Pay for the table, electricity and enjoy the ride!
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#27 01-28-2011, 06:39 PM
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I have a very interesting question for responsable breeders/sellers in business .......let say I purchased a pair of sub adult PDFs from your business and about 6 or 7 montha later I say wow
all this time and no calling, no eggs, nothing nada,zilch, I say to myself...self I must have a pair of FEMALES!!!, now I call you and I Tell....hey Joe Blow I think you might have sold me 2 females by accident. now here comes the question.....what would you say and do? #1 If you say hey I sold you a pair, you just don't know how to sex frogs but if you want to buy another male then I'll sell you one. ( you just lost my business)

THE MORAL OF THIS STORY IS ......BREEDERS/SELLERS HAVE TO BE RESPONSABLE TOO.

Sorry for the hijack if it's off main topic

There is another part to this story but I'll wait and see what responses if any there are.
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#28 01-28-2011, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainfo
I have a very interesting question for responsable breeders/sellers in business .......let say I purchased a pair of sub adult PDFs from your business and about 6 or 7 montha later I say wow
all this time and no calling, no eggs, nothing nada,zilch, I say to myself...self I must have a pair of FEMALES!!!, now I call you and I Tell....hey Joe Blow I think you might have sold me 2 females by accident. now here comes the question.....what would you say and do? #1 If you say hey I sold you a pair, you just don't know how to sex frogs but if you want to buy another male then I'll sell you one. ( you just lost my business)

THE MORAL OF THIS STORY IS ......BREEDERS/SELLERS HAVE TO BE RESPONSABLE TOO.

Sorry for the hijack if it's off main topic

There is another part to this story but I'll wait and see what responses if any there are.
Thanks

Well you take some risk buying a probable pair...but I would like to see a seller refund the extra cost of a sexed pair in that case. If they sell adult females for 100 each and sold you the pair for 250, they should refund you 50 IMO....That would be Ideal, well Ok just giving you a free male would be Ideal but unrealistic. On the other hand I'm not going to condemn a seller if their animals and general practices are usually great if they aren't willing to refund in this case and you did assume the risk of it only being a probable pair. Now if it was a proven or sexed pair and not a best guess then I really think they need to do something to make that right.
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#29 01-28-2011, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dendro Dave
Well you take some risk buying a probable pair...but I would like to see a seller refund the extra cost of a sexed pair in that case. If they sell adult females for 100 each and sold you the pair for 250, they should refund you 50 IMO....That would be Ideal, well Ok just giving you a free male would be Ideal but unrealistic. On the other hand I'm not going to condemn a seller if their animals and general practices are usually great if they aren't willing to refund in this case and you did assume the risk of it only being a probable pair. Now if it was a proven or sexed pair and not a best guess then I really think they need to do something to make that right.

Thanks Dendro Dave..........But it did not say probable pair on the price list it said
"pair" but I'm not saying that there isn't a happy ending to this story, because there is................
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#30 01-28-2011, 08:35 PM
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To me though anything that isn't a proven pair is probable. Since you said sub adult they can't be proven due to age so it would have to be a probable pair. So this does go back to the buyer and his willingness to trust the seller that he can sex frogs at a subadult age
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Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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they were 11 months old, like I said sold as PAIRS, why is that so hard to understand?
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#32 01-28-2011, 09:48 PM
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***I shouldn't be posting in this section...sorry***


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty
AT the shows in Utopia they do sorry, couldn't resist it. Assumption at shows is that you're a big boy and you can handle your business affairs yourself without hand holding. Pay for the table, electricity and enjoy the ride!

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#33 01-28-2011, 11:09 PM
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I was speaking in general, not specifically about your frogs.
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#34 01-28-2011, 11:11 PM
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#35 01-28-2011, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmartin72
Ah yes, frog utopia. Where every hobbiest, both seller and buyer, is responsible, caring, knowleable, honest and equipped with a Mistking unit.

That sounds like the world I want to live in ... sign me up
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#36 01-29-2011, 07:33 PM
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I'm a bit pragmatic. I just expect experienced froggers who supposedly care about the hobby to take three seconds out of their busy selling Saturday to ask the question of little children;
"And would these be your very first froggies little guy?"
And when the child answers "yes", take two more seconds to reply "then thumbs are not the best beginner's frogs".

I know , crazy thoughts from me once again. And it takes so much time to ask one or two simple questions.

Dollar dollar bill yall.
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#37 01-29-2011, 07:47 PM
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#38 01-29-2011, 07:55 PM
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Oh, is that rap?
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#39 01-29-2011, 08:19 PM
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#40 01-29-2011, 08:21 PM
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Another issue is many Beginners jumping straight into more difficult species, And wanting proven or sexed pairs. Noone wants to do the work themselves. What happened to the average beginner grabbing up leucs, auratus and tincs. Days long gone.

Michael
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Last edited by poison beauties; 01-30-2011 at 09:46 AM.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#41 01-29-2011, 08:24 PM
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#42 01-30-2011, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
What happened to the average beginner grabbing up leucs, auratus and tincs. Days long gone.


Well said Michael, plus asking questions like Rich said only takes a few seconds.

When you are in this hobby it is about the frogs, even if you sell them for a living it is not just your reputation at stake it is a passion for dart frogs, that is where it all starts. Takes a while and constant care to get a tadpole to a 3 mo. old froglet plus the feeding requirements of young frogs and even getting the advanced frogs to an age where they are old enough to withstand shipping. Not to mention the different requirements needed to get breeding pairs or groups to breed.

I do not understand how anyone who takes the time to do the above would risk selling them to someone that has the potential of killing them due to lack of knowledge etc.
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#43 01-30-2011, 09:45 AM
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Its simple. Many of the new hobbyists jump on the boards and shop based on what they will breed and profit from otherwise you wouldn't hear ''how long till they breed'' or ''once I make my money back I will sell them cheaper''.
I'm all for those who have the skill level to look at this hobby as a business as well as tend to their hobby needs but......;it cant be done by all.

Otherwise we are a collaboration of small business's treading back and forth frogs. not a hobby. Its simple though, if your too much in a hurry to get a proven or sexed pair for your first frogs I have to wonder what your plans for our hobby are,

Michael
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#44 01-30-2011, 12:01 PM
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It boils down to this.
There is a fairly 'visable' line right in the middle of all the dart frogs being sold or offered for trade.
On one side are the hobbyists, on the other the business people.
If you live on the hobby side , you can venture into the business side and play around, but you live in Hobbyland.
If you live in Busiville you can also venture once and awhile into Hobbyland, but you live in the business end of darts.
If you are 100% fine with "it's just a job", from a flipper or a jobber or someone who just wants to make as many sales to whomever possible, buy from a business man or woman.
If you care about the frogs, their lineage, their health and well being, and care about where the hobby is going and where it should be, don't support business people, support the hobby.
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#45 01-30-2011, 12:21 PM
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Picture a...."GIANT Scale" in your head. You know, the kind that they measure stuff with.....

Then put the potential seller on one end.

Then start filling the other end with things that seller has done for the good of the hobby and the animals...like:

1. Posts often on Forums or message boards and trys to help a lot of different people
2. Follows up the sale and asks how everything is going with the frog(s)
3. Has a clean frog room and really takes sterling care of his or her frogs
4. Trades, works out deals with other hobbyists. Tries to keep lines and morphs intact
5. Attends shows and meets and goes out the way to talk to all the visitors at his or her table
6. Readily gives up all his info on where he got tools, tips or items
7. Answers all PM's and emails from hobbyists, even the newbs

There's tons more obviously....but thats a few, anyway.
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#46 01-31-2011, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmartin72
Do sellers have a simple care sheet for their buyers at shows? Do most sellers even ask questions to begin with? Do sellers provide lineage information and stress the importance of the integrity of said lines? Do sellers talk about hybrids?

I do all of those things but provide a care sheet. If I think you need a care sheet for my frogs you aren't getting them. The reason I don't have a set list of questions to quiz people with is that they can memorize anything, if you can't even bother to memorize readily available information then...

I think we also need to be careful about stressing the importance of lines. A lot of lines in the hobby are BS. In thumbnails it pretty much comes down to Understory vs. everything else. We need to discourage people from line breeding based on names and truly understand the frogs that they are working with. Sens line and Nabors line and German green line imitators all came from the Cainarachi valley area of Peru. They should be mixed.

Granted, being thumbnail only scares away a bunch of the riff raff and the rest are weeded out with a brief conversation. I'm not saying I won't sell to kids or beginners, but if you've sold frogs for a couple years, you can get a good feel for people pretty quickly.
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#47 01-31-2011, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Frye
I'm a bit pragmatic. I just expect experienced froggers who supposedly care about the hobby to take three seconds out of their busy selling Saturday to ask the question of little children;
"And would these be your very first froggies little guy?"
And when the child answers "yes", take two more seconds to reply "then thumbs are not the best beginner's frogs".

I know , crazy thoughts from me once again. And it takes so much time to ask one or two simple questions.

Dollar dollar bill yall.

And what specifically prompted this? I'm sure there's a good story in there somewhere.
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#48 01-31-2011, 09:22 AM
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Sorry for being so scattered and late to the party...


Quote:
Originally Posted by dmartin72
Another question...do shows have a meeting with their vendors ahead of time explaining/suggesting a basic guidelines when selling frogs?

Generally you have to sign off on a rules and regs sheet to vend. I think a website that publicly lists the expectations accomplishes the same thing and if buyers can see what the rules are, then they would also be able to help police the vendors.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dmartin72
Do sellers have a simple care sheet for their buyers at shows?

I do think that uniform care sheets could be provided to vendors by a benevolent hobby organization for display at their tables.
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#49 01-31-2011, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aurotaenia
I do all of those things but provide a care sheet. If I think you need a care sheet for my frogs you aren't getting them. The reason I don't have a set list of questions to quiz people with is that they can memorize anything, if you can't even bother to memorize readily available information then...

I think we also need to be careful about stressing the importance of lines. A lot of lines in the hobby are BS. In thumbnails it pretty much comes down to Understory vs. everything else. We need to discourage people from line breeding based on names and truly understand the frogs that they are working with. Sens line and Nabors line and German green line imitators all came from the Cainarachi valley area of Peru. They should be mixed.

Granted, being thumbnail only scares away a bunch of the riff raff and the rest are weeded out with a brief conversation. I'm not saying I won't sell to kids or beginners, but if you've sold frogs for a couple years, you can get a good feel for people pretty quickly.


I wasn't aware people had started putting the Nabors tag on imis of late. But it does not surprise me at all.
And you are right. People tend to put 'lines' on anything they got from anybody. For example, I should have zero ' Frye line' tags on any of my thumbs . This tends to come from ignorance of what a line is. For example. All highland lamasi should also be bred together.
And I totally agree that it takes very little time to feel someone out. Sometimes it does not even take asking a question. Here's a good indicator. If the kid is buying fly cultures, lots of premixed medium, and thumbs and does not know there are potato flakes in the mix, he's a first timer.
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#50 01-31-2011, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aurotaenia
And what specifically prompted this? I'm sure there's a good story in there somewhere.

Reading the story of one (but certainly not limited to that single story) of our member's first trip to buy darts. It can be found in the beginner's section.

I often find it very interesting what some consider "highly reputable " froggers.
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Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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-31-2011, 11:40 AM
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I must have missed that one.
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#52 01-31-2011, 11:49 AM
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Just one example;

update...
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#53 01-31-2011, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Frye
It boils down to this.
There is a fairly 'visable' line right in the middle of all the dart frogs being sold or offered for trade.
On one side are the hobbyists, on the other the business people.
If you live on the hobby side , you can venture into the business side and play around, but you live in Hobbyland.
If you live in Busiville you can also venture once and awhile into Hobbyland, but you live in the business end of darts.
If you are 100% fine with "it's just a job", from a flipper or a jobber or someone who just wants to make as many sales to whomever possible, buy from a business man or woman.
If you care about the frogs, their lineage, their health and well being, and care about where the hobby is going and where it should be, don't support business people, support the hobby.

Rich, this is gold. This should be on a post-it right next to the hybrid statement. My compliments on concisely stating a pure truth that took me 20 years in herps to understand.
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#54 02-08-2011, 12:19 AM
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Thank you.

Rich
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#55 02-08-2011, 05:49 AM
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D. tinctorius - Brazilian Yellow Head
D. tinctorius - Cobalt Blue
D. tinctorius - Powder Blue
O. pumilio - Bastimentos RFB
P. terribilis - Yellow

Plantz
Nepenthes gymnamphora





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Just curious, possible to have a dual citizenship and live in HobbyLand and Businessville ? As far as frogs are concerned that is. Since a lot of these 'frog businesses' are born out of the love and passion for the hobby and frogs, I'd imagine that few dedicated hobbyists sell frogs as a business. Or do you think these are mutually exclusive ?

I do agree... you can't go wrong by buying from an educated hobbyist.
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#56 11-20-2011, 04:15 PM
frogparty
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I want to point ou that not all kids are the same. I bred my ball pythons for the first time when I was nine. Bred my first tarantulas when I was 12, emperor scorpions at 13. I have had herps all my life, and spent all my money ( earned through work- no allowance) on them and their cages. I spent hours and hours and hours in the library doing research, and feel very confident that I could have raised darts just fine back then if I had had access to the quality captive bred animals we have accessible today. It's not fair to assume all kids are undereducated on the needs of their prospective pets, but a few questions before a sale goes a long way towards weeding out hose that know from those that dont
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#57 11-21-2011, 09:23 AM
TJ_Burton
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Plantz
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Alley Cat x Pauciflora'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Alpine Rose'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Andy Ann'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Angel Face'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Ariel'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'BAM!'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Black Track'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Blushing Tiger'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Born Of Fire'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Brandywine'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Candelabra'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Caviar'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Checkerboard'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Dartanion'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Domino'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Edge of Night'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Eliza'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Fat Cat'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Fireball F2'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Fireball x Compacta'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Fireball x Pauciflora'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Fireball'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Flirtation'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Hanibal Lector F2'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Hanibal Lector x Cheers'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Hanibal Lector x Pauctatissima'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Hendrix #8802'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Honihoni'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Juca x Fireball'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Lee Hing'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Lilliputiana x Pineliana'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Little Africa x Strawberry'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Little Faith'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Mo Peppa Please'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Night Sky'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Night Spot'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Olens x (Fireball x Compacta)'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Pauciflora x (Fireball x Morris Helry Hobbs)'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Pauciflora'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Punctatissima Rubra x Tigrina'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Purple Star x Fireball'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Red Bird'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Rubrifolia'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Ruby Throat'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Saramentosa x Joao Marcio'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Tiger Cub'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Tom Foolery'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Wee Willy'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Whim'
Bromeliad Neoregelia 'Winnie The Pooh'

DartFrogz
D. Auratus (Ancon Hill)
Mantella Pulchra
R. Imitator (Varadero)
R. Lamasi (Green)





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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty
Just curious, possible to have a dual citizenship and live in HobbyLand and Businessville ? As far as frogs are concerned that is. Since a lot of these 'frog businesses' are born out of the love and passion for the hobby and frogs, I'd imagine that few dedicated hobbyists sell frogs as a business. Or do you think these are mutually exclusive ?

I do agree... you can't go wrong by buying from an educated hobbyist.

Yes I am sure it is possible, and I am sure many breeders out there are in a grey area between the two; not every breeder wants to use bare bones setups to 'farm' frogs in.
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30gal cube:- Auratus 'Ancon Hill'


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#58 11-21-2011, 09:26 AM
Rich Frye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frogparty
... It's not fair to assume all kids are undereducated on the needs of their prospective pets...







Hi, whoever you are,
It's also not fair or intelligent to assume that all children are at the same monetary level , education, experience, or husbandry level , ect. , ect. that an 'average' adult would be at. 'All things equal' goes a long way. There are reasons we have laws to protect children, and people who prey on children as an easy target are the lowest of the low. As the news has pointed out recently...
I don't think anyone mentioned once here that "all kids are undereducated on the needs of thier (their) prospective pets".

In fact,

"In the most recent cases I am talking about children under the legal driving age who are not ready to own darts , yet are sold them without question.
Ethically I don't care if you are a 100 year old manchild and want darts but not ready, I'm not selling. "

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My main question in this thread .
How does the advanced darter view other advanced darters selling anything to anybody. No questions asked? Throwing children into the mix should cement the feeling."



" Just so people don't keep bringing up the fact that there are wunderkind out there.
I personally have learned more dart info via phone conversations from a genius by the name of Alexander S. than from any adult, hands down. Alexander was 15 when I first started learning from him. Don't think I'm ignorant to the fact of such wunderkind.

Once again, I'm talking about those advanced breeders who sell to children who are not ready for darts, and ask zero questions of anybody, other than "how will you be paying for this?""






Need I keep quoting so we are once again on the same page?


Rich
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Beware. If a frog flipper tells you he wants to "work with your frogs" it's not necessarily a lie. It's just that their work entails flipping your frogs.
"However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."
WC

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Last edited by Rich Frye; 11-21-2011 at 09:44 AM.


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#59 11-22-2011, 09:44 AM
frogparty
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Ok. I definitely see your point. Noone ever sold me anything when I was young without making damn sure I knew what I was doing. And I would never just hand off some of my cb frogs to a kid without making sure I asked a lot of questions.
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#60 11-22-2011, 03:30 PM
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I agree that a few questions should be asked. You should be able to tell pretty quickly if somebody is ready to be keeping frogs or not. I'm glad you are pointing out that not all kids fall into that category. My son is well equipped with the knowledge it takes to keep darts. In fact, he usually notices breeding behavior before me, finds the first eggs before me, and spots the first pumilio and Escudo froglet before me!
Frogface mentioned a child on DB who researched for a couple years before getting his first frogs. I'm pretty sure I know who that is. His heart was set on thumbnails and he researched them very thoroughly, proving his knowledge through his posts to others. By the time he got his first frogs, I fully supported his choice of Varadero for his first frogs. His frogs are thriving and breeding. He is anxiously awaiting his first to morph out.
Doug
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Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#57
Happy New Year everyone!
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#58
....I meant....cut and paste only your own posts that would be germane to this particular thread.

No worries....I appreciate the effort.
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#59
Rich Phil,you both want the same thing,ok tonight we are all a little bit worse for ware,can't you two just have a big hug and set about educating us that really are desparate for your help,love you guys
both of you thankyou for making us laugh so hard it hurts 8)
have the best new year both of you
Stu and Shaz
Ps
Glen hey bro happy new year dude,for all of it cheers
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#60
Stu&Shaz Wrote:Rich Phil,you both want the same thing,ok tonight we are all a little bit worse for ware,can't you two just have a big hug and set about educating us that really are desparate for your help,love you guys
both of you thankyou for making us laugh so hard it hurts 8)
have the best new year both of you
Stu and Shaz
Ps
Glen hey bro happy new year dude,for all of it cheers

^^^What Stu said. I appreciate people that post with knowledge. It means a LOT to us newcomers! Thanks Stu! Big Grin
Glenn
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