Posts: 4,450
Threads: 398
Joined: Jun 2004
...and , "I've been working with herps for decades"...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Posts: 351
Threads: 22
Joined: Mar 2010
Personal attacks aside this is one reason we as a hobby should get together and write a complete guide to getting started in this hobby. Something not just of one persons opinion and experiences from a group effort. It would be the perfect reference for all hobbyists. Its something I thought the Union could pull off as well. Wouldnt be much of a profit as a group so all profits could be donated to a hobby related project. Just a thought.
Michael
Everyday I meet someone I dislike, are you today's pick? If you dislike me it's because somethings wrong with you!
Don't Be A Hybridiot!
Posts: 4,450
Threads: 398
Joined: Jun 2004
^ ...and The Union will, and has started. There's only so much time in the day, and I'm not doing it by myself.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.
If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.
My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Posts: 10,391
Threads: 871
Joined: Oct 2008
A Union Message / Code of Ethics won't have the "end all" desired impact - It'll always be viewed as non-objective.
A Book won't work - same reason and it just won't get into the hands of enough hobbyists or quick enough.
NOT that either undertaking is bad or a waste of time...
But
The most "bang for the buck".....reaching the most people, the most potential hobbyists.....the largest collection of archived information specific to Dart Frog Husbandry is right here.
The online Forum and Hobby Community.
There's an old contractor saying "Stone finds it's own level" ,meaning -When you want to lay stone gravel down for a driveway for instance, you do not need to grade it, shape it, work hard to make it look good, ect. Stone gravel will be driven over by all the countless cars and vehicles using the driveway and it will literally - find it's own level on it's own.
The Dart Frog hobby community is the same way .We put our own thoughts, opinions, ideas, methods, considerations and documentations out there, en masse', and the rest of the community will judge and take what they will from it all. Hence, the improvements, ethics, advances ect - will all come from the many postings and threads of the community at large and not one book or one group or one code.
Look at how well the Hobby has put "designer breeder" / Hybrid frogs in it's place. There was a lot of input (from Both sides) and the community took a while, but eventually, the majority formed an opinion and it...."took".
Posts: 351
Threads: 22
Joined: Mar 2010
Phil with all do respect this hobby gos well beyond the boards. If books didnt work or help they wouldnt keep writing them. Archived info is a good thing which is why we started designing a library geard towards teaching guides last summer. Archived info on a forum gets debated, buried and bettered and there is no way to set it up as a guide for new hobbyists. There needs to be a book whether online and down loadable or on paper that can be used as a reference for all. The whole thing in one place. No searches and you dont have to use or join a forum to get to it.
Look at how many Darts we have all sold at shows in the last decade, Its not the public boards that buy them all. Otherwise we should just stop doing shows and trade them all on here. A book or a business card for it with a web addy sitting on a table at a show as well as showing up in a google search is needed and will benefit more of the people we need to get to. I'd like to think the ones who dont use the boards or the ones that just did hop on them need the help more.
Michael
Everyday I meet someone I dislike, are you today's pick? If you dislike me it's because somethings wrong with you!
Don't Be A Hybridiot!
Posts: 10,391
Threads: 871
Joined: Oct 2008
Books will always be out there. Even with Kindle and nooks ect, the printed paper word will still be around for a long time.
But more people use the internet than go to book stores, look at books, pick up books, buy ebooks, go to libraries, schools combined.
The inter-web, percentage-wise, is where it's at. The forums and boards don't SELL the actual frogs, but they wind up providing a high percentage of people with info AFTER the sale. Especially new people.
Posts: 351
Threads: 22
Joined: Mar 2010
Like I said an entire guide or intro to this hobby is due. A downloadable book works since more people use the internet. Not having all the info together discourages new hobbyists from going after anything but the bare minimal as the amount of work we put in usually exceeds what most think.
I dont think the forums are the key to teaching, The info is too spread out, They are however an needed asset to debating the knowledge as well as sharing and advancing this hobby.
Michael
Everyday I meet someone I dislike, are you today's pick? If you dislike me it's because somethings wrong with you!
Don't Be A Hybridiot!
Posts: 120
Threads: 9
Joined: Feb 2011
Poison Beauties Wrote:I dont think the forums are the key to teaching, The info is too spread out, They are however an needed asset to debating the knowledge as well as sharing and advancing this hobby. I have to agree. There is a lot of good info on the boards, but there is even more bad info and the average newbie doesn't have the patience or ability to sort through it all. Look at the DB thread in question, who wants to read all that crap, and how would they know who to trust? I'm sure that "the zoos do it" sounds impressive to someone who doesn't know any better. A library format would make for an easily searched archive of GOOD info distilled from all the shit by a qualified group of hobbyists. Discussions are usually only valuable to the more experienced hobbyists.
Posts: 71
Threads: 10
Joined: Mar 2011
As a new guy...
I would say this board has been the biggest source for information for me. I feel that i have learned tons here from you all. I would think that most new people would google the topic/hobby to learn what they could before jumping in. There are some good points here about threads getting mucked up. I would suggest that the Admins pull together the "how to's" and clean out the garbage and create a how to area that can not be posted to ...only read, updated when needed by Admins. This would create a clean source of info for the newbs.
Tony
~GMT
Posts: 10,391
Threads: 871
Joined: Oct 2008
Nicely Said Tony GMT, not to be confused with Tony CVB. Heh..made a slight funny there for y'all.
As a Forum Admin....I will trim some of the nonsense at some point, to make stuff more easily read. None of the "meat" or opinion ever, only the one-word or goofy stuff. I do believe it trying to keep it rather than delete it, overall.
The Newest of the Newbs....the little kids and those with comprehension skill severely lacking, may not be able to digest the long threads, but I posit, that the bigger kids, the one's more likely to stick with the hobby are reading it all - like the Tony GMT (who I've met in person) who is the kind of hobbyist that will stick...and grow...and add to the hobby.
We can't reach em all.....we can't win em all either....but we have to keep trying. Keep fightin' the good fight and it will all be productive in the end.
Posts: 351
Threads: 22
Joined: Mar 2010
GrandmasterTree Wrote:As a new guy...
I would say this board has been the biggest source for information for me. I feel that i have learned tons here from you all. I would think that most new people would google the topic/hobby to learn what they could before jumping in. There are some good points here about threads getting mucked up. I would suggest that the Admins pull together the "how to's" and clean out the garbage and create a how to area that can not be posted to ...only read, updated when needed by Admins. This would create a clean source of info for the newbs.
Tony
~GMT
The problem is most people dont google the topic and do the research. And the ones who do google it get many outdated threads and practices to read about and then we are back to the debate on what really is best. As in that thread, the only valid ''published'' reason I could toss out other than my many reasons based on our hobby's practices and past was the CO2 issue and it pretty much went unheard and it moved into somehow the frogs starving.
I try and help all who I can but the simple fact is based on this hobby's current practice and past practice as a whole the new hobbyist doesnt want to do the work only the bare minimal. Ive actually seen a few hobbyists get started and going by only asking questions and starting new threads. They did no other reading. Only by making it simpler and putting together a guide or book for new hobbyists will it get better. We need to be able to answer any thread question with a simple link to a book the hobby has put together and if they are too lazy or just dont want to read it which some are we have no reason to continue helping them due to the fact we know they wont read the 50+ threads needed in order to get them the basics to the hobby. The boards wont get better. Not even if you trim the fat. Someone will always take issue with change and new hobbyists join everyday.
Everyday I meet someone I dislike, are you today's pick? If you dislike me it's because somethings wrong with you!
Don't Be A Hybridiot!
Posts: 758
Threads: 8
Joined: Aug 2009
Thought this was interesting. Did a search and came up with this from a few years back.
post1050.html?hilit=tinctorious#p1050
Glenn
Posts: 10,391
Threads: 871
Joined: Oct 2008
Yep...interesting. You can see where, even back then, people are trying hard to "go bigger" and not settle or promote 10 gallons.
It's a constant battle...and NOW we have to contend with Exo "nano vivs". 1 step forward, 2 steps back.
Posts: 758
Threads: 8
Joined: Aug 2009
Philsuma Wrote:and NOW we have to contend with Exo "nano vivs". 1 step forward, 2 steps back.
Apparently we do...
http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-pets-other-p ... Z284088994
No idea who this is. :roll:
Glenn
Posts: 10,391
Threads: 871
Joined: Oct 2008
And horribly overpriced too.....geeze.
Posts: 375
Threads: 27
Joined: Oct 2011
I realize this is older and that the topic took a detour into the ethics side but I thought I would post something I am building for my frogs using a 10 gallon.
First I would like to say that I personally think that a 10 gallon is too small for a pair of adult, breeding tincs (or other large frog) but great for young frogs and juveniles!
What I have done is taken a standard ten gallon tank. and placed it sideways (so that the viewing part is on of the 10" x 12") From here you have a typical false bottom. Use a very small, (1/2" - 1") of peat/coco for the substrate with a generous portion of leaves on top for ground cover. Use smaller, vineing plants in the tank, like Creeping fig.
Then add a second 'tier' about 4-6 inches above the bottom layer. This tier is 8 inches deep by ten inches in length. It has small ramp up to the tier. This tier is about 4 inches below the top of the tank, so short but still usable space for crawling around. The second tier is a false bottom as well.
That second tier also becomes the top of a 'cave' give the frogs a spot to get out of the lights.
Now for the math part:
A standard 10 gallon has 200 square inches of floor space. With the 8" x 10" tier, you gain an additional 80 square inches of space. This totals to 280 square inches, not including the ramp. A typical 20 gallon tank has 288 square inches of floor space, less with a background.
Looks: I'll admit, this is not the prettiest setup, but its no 'uglier' then a frog tote setup! With a little Great stuff, silicone, coco, some crazy vineing plants, leaves, etc, it should fill in pretty nice.
Again, I will not be putting adults in the tank, but this will at least maximizing the usable area for my younger frogs, while still maintaining a small habitat that is easily monitored. This may also be more suitable for frogs that like to climb!
And yes, I am open to suggestions, criticism, because I am newer and may have completely overlooked a factor! 
I am in the building faze and I am hoping the frogs will actually utilize the tier....
Pics to come eventually!
Posts: 10,391
Threads: 871
Joined: Oct 2008
^^^ kinda hard to visualize....pics would help greatly.
the ONLY 2 reasons, that I can fathom, for using 10 gallon tanks are:
1. Cost - A lot of people, especially newbs want to cut cost and either use a free 10 gallon laying around, or only spend $10.00 for a tank. The dart frog hobby is not expensive but it's not cheap either....if someone can't afford a decent size enclosure, they are probably gonna skimp on supplements and other stuff then...
2. Space - Some people want to cram as many tanks into a bakers rack or small area of their house. There are also frog "horders" who use nothing but 10 gallons. See #1 above tie-in here too.
Posts: 375
Threads: 27
Joined: Oct 2011
Oh I agree, coming from the fish world, I have like 10 of them lying around so I wanted to be able to use them and optimize the space inside for young frogs. My fish rack has a section built for 10 gallon tanks so I dont have a choice in that section.
All my other tanks are 20's, 20Ls, 29s, and a few larger tanks.
Here is a rough of the general idea:
![[Image: j4TzZ.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/j4TzZ.jpg)
Posts: 10,391
Threads: 871
Joined: Oct 2008
Still seeing a lot of new hobbyists picking 10 gallons for their first vivs.....and...then wanting to hardscape them with foam, add a waterfall or big water feature.
ughh...
I really think there are a lot of people that desire a small-ish / "Nano viv" just because they've seen it out there somewhere - a pic in Reptile magazine or at a "Reptile Show".
and I totally understand trying to save a buck or two, here and there but man.....if you can't afford a 20 gallon or 29 gallon enclosure. How are you going to afford fresh vitamins every 6 months, and FF media ect ect.
This hobby is not "expensive"....but it ain't dirt cheap either.
Posts: 86
Threads: 2
Joined: Feb 2011
Philsuma Wrote:Still seeing a lot of new hobbyists picking 10 gallons for their first vivs.....and...then wanting to hardscape them with foam, add a waterfall or big water feature.
ughh...
I really think there are a lot of people that desire a small-ish / "Nano viv" just because they've seen it out there somewhere - a pic in Reptile magazine or at a "Reptile Show".
and I totally understand trying to save a buck or two, here and there but man.....if you can't afford a 20 gallon or 29 gallon enclosure. How are you going to afford fresh vitamins every 6 months, and FF media ect ect.
This hobby is not "expensive"....but it ain't dirt cheap either.
I don't think it's cost. I think its space. Most new froggers are young, probably still live with their parents. So they only have their bedroom to keep their tanks in. You can fit 3 10 gallon verts in the same space as a 29.
I have 10's that i use for froglets until they get a certain size, and for single frogs
|
