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Philsuma Wrote:Question for Stu, on the other side of the pond......how prevalent is "Flipping" over there ? Is it looked down upon ?
By and large we don't have the term here. I find it difficult to get any information that could denote lineage here. Our only specialist declares frogs from Canada/Understory, he is a business but travels to Europe and brings in frogs which not all of us can do and sells for profit but I don't think there is anything wrong in that. Its his living, and he provides a service to the hobby. He is very helpful and has given us huge amounts of his time and knowledge. Apart from him, dart frogs are occasionally sold in pet shops, and one does hear horror stories. I recently saw pics of some tincs that were bought, I believe at our first frog day, and sold in Ireland. Phil they were so thin when the guy posted them on our forum it was heart wrenching (other folks saw them at the show and they were ok). The shop, it appears, had been trying to feed them crickets that were too large. Even as the novice I am( this was just after our male had problems because of hating the QT tub), I and others showed him some pics and chucked ideas about food to the new keeper. This it seems, has a happy ending - the frogs put on weight and look much better now (I have seen pics last couple of days).
The dealer in Ireland would deserve the term flipper I guess (I might loose my temper and say worse, but I'll restrain). I don't know who he is, but he is not held in high esteem by yours truly that's for sure !
I don't see this on the same level as you do Phil, because our hobby is so much smaller. But if a guy is going to sell dart frogs then at the very least he should know what the F****** he is talking about and be able to pass info on to the newcomer about their care ! As you can possibly tell, this riles me big style, rare for me to get really angry, but this ticks that box.
I as I have already said, would I love a proper heredity paper with all frogs sold for all of us that care about such things ? But to deal in darts - make money off them and not have a ruddy clue as to their care, brings this issue to a whole new level which I hope you don't see. DAMN right I look down on that, apologies...rant over.
I'll go back to reading this informative thread now.
Stu
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Flippers place business and $$$ over the animals themselves.
In the end.....it NEVER works out for the flipper. They crash and burn their reputation - all for a few dollars and maybe some "fame" amongst certain circles of people.
So disappointing...
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Philsuma Wrote:Is "brokering" other people's frogs / frogs you don't even have in your possession, considered flipping ?
I honestly don't know...
Thoughts ?
Hmmm...posted this @ 7 weeks ago and no one touched it ?
It's headline news lately though....advertising frogs you don't own.
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Philsuma Wrote:Philsuma Wrote:Is "brokering" other people's frogs / frogs you don't even have in your possession, considered flipping ?
I honestly don't know...
Thoughts ?
Hmmm...posted this @ 7 weeks ago and no one touched it ?
It's headline news lately though....advertising frogs you don't own.
To me Brokering is Brokering. You're the middle man between the buyer and the person who actually posseses the animal. Brokering is repuation suicide. You're putting you're repuation on someone else picking, packing and shipping a healthy animal
Flipping is obtaining an animal and turning it over for a profit before any proper QT is done (at least 1 month QT). Making sure the animal is eating properly, and regularly.
I've been away so I am behind on the headline news
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Brokering wildlife in any way requires permits or licensing in most states. That is something
many people overlook.
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems
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I have noticed some flippers are getting a little smarter, getting friends/employees to post wanted ads...crafty huh?
-Field Smith
Some frogs...
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Sounds to me like "flippers" in frogs (I'm sure all herps) is a bit more professional than with chickens. We have them in the chicken world and I might be the only one to refer to them as "flippers" there... the biggest difference is that they don't take whole groups of chickens always, they will take your free rooster or whatnot and turn and sell it. My biggest concern is the animal's care in the meantime. Yes, lineage matters in chickens... possibly even more so than in frogs with some breeds. You don't get the full background or even health history of the animal, and yes, it is just plain dishonest.
Can you tell I look down on it? I do think that if you are playing "middleman", then just say so. The buyer might want the chance to contact the true breeder or to know exactly what line they have. Seems good buisness to me to just be upfront about it. Why portray yourself as the breeder if you are not?
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anyone flippin' lately ? I think we've put a "dent" in flipping by outing it so heavily. It'll be back....when someone feels safe enough or doesn't care.
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I bought several tadpoles a little while ago in hopes of increasing my chances of finding myself with a pair later down the line. I am now selling and trading a few of the froglets, though, I did not breed them. I hope this type of behavior is not too heavily frowned upon. I certainly would not want to have a bad standing in the community.
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Philsuma Wrote:anyone flippin' lately ? I think we've put a "dent" in flipping by outing it so heavily. It'll be back....when someone feels safe enough or doesn't care. There is always someone flipping...should be some news soon.
-Field Smith
Some frogs...
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just got a couple PM's on this....flipping....
Flipping is not a black-white issue. Are hobbyists that rotate out animals, albeit quickly, to other hobbyists, "flippers" ? Not in my sense of the term. It's like a big paintbrush. Sometimes you get a little bit of paint - some dots or whatever splashed on you and sometimes you spill the whole can or swipe yourself with the whole freshly dipped roller. It's a case by case basis.
example:
Black Jungle continues to buy hobbyist's overstock - that is, the extra froglets that other hobbyists produce. The then market and sell them (ship) all over the country. Since they sell other people's frogs quickly - turn them over....they fit into the term flipper, right ?
Not so fast, IMO.
Some other considerations:
1. They are also breeders. The breed a lot of frog species on their own. Flippers are usually close to 90%, Not breeding anything of their own.
2. They are a full service retail store. They sell supplies and every possible item related to keeping dart frogs. This alone doesn't give anyone a "pass", but it sure as heck tells me that they are vested into the hobby and concerned enough to go out of their way to spend time and money to stock all the extra items, like supplements and plants and substrate to care for the hobby and not just shove frogs right back out the door.
3. They have longevity. Big amount of Cred for that. They have been helping the hobby and the frogs for years and years. 100% of all filppers that I have seen, burn themselves out of any sort of reputation in a year or so. Usually less.
In summation, a flipper is only concerned with selling frogs and getting them in the door cheaply and right back out.
Again...a "Flipper" is someone that you will notice and be able to label 100% after you spend a bit of time in this hobby."
Like Tony mentioned in an earlier post here...The phrase famously used by United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to describe his threshold test for if he felt something was pornography or not - "I know it when I see it".
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Gnarly Wrote:I bought several tadpoles a little while ago in hopes of increasing my chances of finding myself with a pair later down the line. I am now selling and trading a few of the froglets, though, I did not breed them. I hope this type of behavior is not too heavily frowned upon. I certainly would not want to have a bad standing in the community.
Sorry... just now saw this. Nope....purchasing any number of tads or frogs with the hope of raising up a breeding pair and then selling off the surplus is NEVER considered flipping, IMO. No worries.
Flippers would buy 25 tadpoles or froglets for wholesale prices and then lie to the breeder and say they were going to raise them and then sell all 25 for 200% more...and then keep trying to repeat that behaviour.
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Ah, thanks for clarifying.
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So I can understand the current definition of flipping, is it the capitalist way of doing business of buying in bulk at wholesale prices , then marking up the price when re-selling? Or is the meaning of flipping tied to the breeder not being told what the end disposition of their frogs would be? If the breeder never asks what or how the frogs will be dispensed in the end, would it still be flipping, or does the mere act of changing the way the frogs are disposed of in the end, without contacting the breeder first to advise what your going to do with frogs the breeder has no claim to any longer, does this make it flipping? This is a topic I always found fascinating since I been on the different frog forums. Bill
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Thanks for posting Bill. Always appreciate your wisdom and experience - especially with the business end of things. Much needed. I don't think we really have a solid definition of "flipping", yet. I think it's evolving a bit. I'm sure the Reptile hobby has something much more firm as they are light years ahead of us in terms of time and amount of selling animals.
This thread is just an ongoing discussion - a starting point, but this is my personal opinion:
1. Nothing wrong with Capitalism. I even embrace the saying " Conservation through Captive Breeding". I've been attending and vending at Reptile shows every since the very first big one by Wayne in Orlando back in the late 80's. Marking up and profits are part of doing business too, IMO. Businesses have to pay rent and utilities.
2. No vetting the origin of the animals is a huge pillar of flipping. I'm sure passing-on Hybrids - injecting them into the hobby willingly or unwillingly occurs with a high degree of regularity with flippers. I hope BJ is careful and picky about the hobbyists that they get overstock from - at least I'd like to think so and unless or until someone tells me otherwise, that's how I look at it. When someone gets outed flipping unknown animals and telling people that they have no idea who bred the animals on their table or lying about same...it sometimes gets circulated and posted, like the recent thread on DB. Some instances need additional verification in some peoples opinion, but you can see how the small nails start to get fixed on the coffin, so to speak.
3.If anyone transfers ANY frogs...I would hope they pass on information as to where it was bred or raised. If the buyer is cool with the info and they happily keep the frogs in their possession, then most likely we never see a thread or post on it.
4. Lack of quarantine and proper care. I have seen the percentage of Hamburg Reptile show vendors who quite possibly NEVER unpack animals from deli cups and travel containers. I know you've seen em too. One R.I vendor used to order a shipment of frogs from FL and get them in on a Friday and just take the deli cups to Hamburg on a Sat.
I don't think one or two instances make someone a Flippers...it's a pattern and a way of businesses - bad business.
Just some thoughts and personal opinions.
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In my opinion the word or term Flipper was not relevant or correct to the perceived problem you describe. I think an accurate naming or description would be Ethical Wildlife Dealer, where said dealer would take care of the animals needs, instead of letting them languish with improper care.
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So the negative term "Flipper" is a poor word choice...do away with that term altogether ? You propose "UN-ethical Wildlife dealer" ?
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I personally think the term Flipper, being used to describe the behaviour at hand, is a poor choice of word.If you read your own description of a Flipper, one can see some of the behaviour is ok at certain times, not at others. It is also apparent that what you find offensive is a line of behaviour, not the single act of selling frogs.So I think Unethical Wildlife Dealer is a good place to start, it may not be cool sounding like Flipper, but does cover a line of behaviour the hobby finds offensive.
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To both, there is a slightly different take, from a beginner. The term frog flipper needs to be explained to some of us new guys, we have no idea at first what the term actually means, as you know Phil i asked,so there will be others like myself. Bill your terminology is self evident straight away to a guy on the other side of the planet and fresh to dart keeping.
regards
Stu
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