Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

[EntoCraig]

I appreciate your honesty! So many people claim to know more then they do... You point is still 100% valid! I have my own doubts based on my experience with genetics and breeding fish, but I do not claim any expertise in frog husbandry, at least, not yet

Chuck, do you buy chance have a info source you can share regarding your thoughts on problems related to inbreeding?

I do agree that many of use can do a better job at documenting the husbandry of our frogs. I do this with many of my rare fish. I only have 6 frogs and none are anywhere close to adult size.

[Philsuma]

Remember...the amount of diverse genetic material we have available differs greatly from species to species. Take D. leucomelas (larger numbers of imported animas) to P. terribilis (much, much fewer) for example.

As far as experts. Not to be found here on the hobby forums. I'm pretty sure even Ed K. would be the first one to tell everyone that he should not be considered an expert.

[chuckpowell]

I don't have any source for the information because their from personal observations over 27 years in the hobby. I put myself in a unique position by becoming editor of the old ISSD Newsletter before its demise, then starting (and finishing) the ADG, and putting on Frog Day for 11 years with my family (and the last one with friends) before putting it on the road. With this background I've made, many many friends in the hobby and I've seen thousands, tens of thousands, off frogs and many dozen collections. I've seen several thousand wild caught animals come in over the years (of which > 90% died). I've legally imported from the wild and from Europe. I've seen people who breed and raise the animals well and poorly. Just that experience makes it possible for me to say what I've said.

Documentation isn't what we need as much as just figuring out the best way to keep our frogs. Once that's figured out we can document how it was done. I know that isn't scientific (and I'm a scientists - https://profile.usgs.gov/cpowell/), but really how many people are going to follow up on improving frog culture - maybe two, maybe three. For the great majority of us their just pets that are beautiful to look at. I'll raise them the best I can but at this point in my life I'm not looking for another project - I'm cutting back. So I'll keep them the best I can and leave it to someone else to improve husbandry - I've done my part.

Best,

Chuck

Chuck, do you buy chance have a info source you can share regarding your thoughts on problems related to inbreeding?

I do agree that many of use can do a better job at documenting the husbandry of our frogs. I do this with many of my rare fish. I only have 6 frogs and none are anywhere close to adult size.

[EntoCraig]

Personal experience is just as good in my book! Especially from someone with 27 years of experience and dedication.

I'm going to have to be an SOB and disagree about documentation... I am a personal believer in documentation along the way, rather then only during success. That way people can look back and see why something turned out the way it did, rather then go by what is perceived as the right way.

I'm not here to flame ya one bit, as I agree with your concerns, but I am a huge documentation kind of person and without it I would have fallen into several mistakes on some of my other projects. It might be just how I learn or the fact that I am just as fascinated with 'the journey' and failures as I am with success. You are right though Documentation of success is the most important!

Side note: Awesome field of study! I have found several 'shell' fossils here in dried up Utah. What a fascinating field of work!

[chuckpowell]

I didn't express myself well. I'm not saying not to keep notes or when someone does document what they did to write it up, the good the bad. You have to. I guess I want to hear about how someone has solved the problem and what they did to get there, not well I tried this and it didn't work, and I tried that and it didn't work. There's over 25 years of people documenting what didn't work in print and on the internet. We all know what isn't working - what we're doing. The goal is better frogs than wc. Lets get there and tell the world.

Best,

Chuck

I'm going to have to be an SOB and disagree about documentation... I am a personal believer in documentation along the way, rather then only during success. That way people can look back and see why something turned out the way it did, rather then go by what is perceived as the right way.

[EntoCraig]

Thanks for the clarification Chuck. Then we are on the same page I however am one of those people interested in the 'this and that', but again, this is more of a personal interest than anything else.

I agree on better frogs as well. Not only is this for our personal benefit (healthier, long living frogs) but it will mean less importing, which I think is a good thing.

[Philsuma]

Again...great post Chuck. Personal experience and "time on the planet" - there is no substitute.

You take the time to post it...I will DEF read it !

[jellyman]

Again...I don't know of a single hobbyist that selectively breeds for size - small or big. I just don't think it's done at all, based on all the info already stated.

What about all the frogs sold at shows in which the buyer pairs up the largest brightest frogs available? Granted this is not "intentional" but think about how many frogs have been bred this way. I'm guilty of this when I picked out all my initial frogs and even last year not even thinking about it when I picked out my group of 5 leucs.

[jellyman]

Great posts Chuck. I'll take personal experience over the so called expert who just posts links to someone elses work everyday of the week.

[Philsuma]

Again...I don't know of a single hobbyist that selectively breeds for size - small or big. I just don't think it's done at all, based on all the info already stated.

What about all the frogs sold at shows in which the buyer pairs up the largest brightest frogs available? Granted this is not "intentional" but think about how many frogs have been bred this way. I'm guilty of this when I picked out all my initial frogs and even last year not even thinking about it when I picked out my group of 5 leucs.

We can't pick so many nits that we find fault with people choosing their initial frogs.

We're talking about line breeding and the "assembly line" breeding techniques that you see on a large scale, like with leopard geckos or corn snakes.

[guppygal]

Again...I don't know of a single hobbyist that selectively breeds for size - small or big. I just don't think it's done at all, based on all the info already stated.

What about all the frogs sold at shows in which the buyer pairs up the largest brightest frogs available? Granted this is not "intentional" but think about how many frogs have been bred this way. I'm guilty of this when I picked out all my initial frogs and even last year not even thinking about it when I picked out my group of 5 leucs.

We can't pick so many nits that we find fault with people choosing their initial frogs.

We're talking about line breeding and the "assembly line" breeding techniques that you see on a large scale, like with leopard geckos or corn snakes.

Well, not necessarily, Phil. The post may have gone that direction, but originally, it was about breeding for specific traits. I mentioned size as one of them. There are other traits - a particular pattern, brighter color, boldness - I'm still curious if thumb breeders hold back smaller frogs to work with. Oh, and we DO find fault with people choosing their initial frogs, right or wrong.

[chuckpowell]

Some likely they do, but I think the majority pick larger, more colorful, or animals with unusual patterns ((I just did). Whenever people pick frogs to keep and breed they pick what they like, color, pattern, size, any or all. If we weren't breeding for what we like we'd have the vendor pick one from his animals and buy it - go to another vendor and have the vendor pick one out, and repeat the process till we have the number of animals we want. No one does this - we all choose.

Best,

Chuck

There are other traits - a particular pattern, brighter color, boldness - I'm still curious if thumb breeders hold back smaller frogs to work with. Oh, and we DO find fault with people choosing their initial frogs, right or wrong.

[guppygal]

Some likely they do, but I think the majority pick larger, more colorful, or animals with unusual patterns ((I just did). Whenever people pick frogs to keep and breed they pick what they like, color, pattern, size, any or all. If we weren't breeding for what we like we'd have the vendor pick one from his animals and buy it - go to another vendor and have the vendor pick one out, and repeat the process till we have the number of animals we want. No one does this - we all choose.

That would be so cool, if frog vendors weren't so limited down South. Every herp show that I've been to has had maybe one or possibly two frog vendors. Usually, just one. But that's just my experience. By all means, if a new hobbyist has access to multiple vendors, I'd do exactly that.

[EntoCraig]

It is technically the same up here. We have 5 or 10 breeders in 3 counties that all meet up at the expos, or various get together, but almost all of them have the same frogs as the other guy. On guys was the original breeder and everyone else bought from him... I am highly considering purchasing some frogs from back east in hopes for a dose of new genetics.

[chuckpowell]

Then you get one mailed to you from one vendor, another from another, etc. There will always be problem. If you think about it you can likely resolve them. If not you take what your given.

Best,

Chuck

[guppygal]

There is that, but those shipping fees are the kicker. It's so much easier (on the pocketbook) to order several frogs from one vendor and pay one shipping fee.

[EntoCraig]

AGREED! I guess if you are adamant about it its worth the $$$ but for most people I dont see this as an option.

[guppygal]

At the moment, I'm simply curious. Lacking cash and resources doesn't help, either. I had a thought, tho - I remember seeing an albino pdf on another forum. It's been a few months, but I'm wondering if the individual who owns the frog decided to breed it, and what the results were.

hmmmmmm......

[jellyman]

Again...I don't know of a single hobbyist that selectively breeds for size - small or big. I just don't think it's done at all, based on all the info already stated.

What about all the frogs sold at shows in which the buyer pairs up the largest brightest frogs available? Granted this is not "intentional" but think about how many frogs have been bred this way. I'm guilty of this when I picked out all my initial frogs and even last year not even thinking about it when I picked out my group of 5 leucs.

We can't pick so many nits that we find fault with people choosing their initial frogs.

We're talking about line breeding and the "assembly line" breeding techniques that you see on a large scale, like with leopard geckos or corn snakes.

I'm just thinking of the cumulative effect of so many hobbiest choosing their frogs based on size, color, boldness, etc...

As individuals it does not seem to have much effect. But add all those hobbiest together and just think about how many frogs are produced under these circumstances.

I'm not picking on these hobbists at all. I personally chose most of my frogs visually based on pattern and color. The only ones I did not were purchased from online sellers.

[Philsuma]

You're assuming that the "ugly" frogs don't ever get picked / sold.

They do get sold....they ALL do. It's not like the drab, shy or odd sized frogs get fed to an oscar fish like in the betta hobby.