Tesoros de Columbia -new frogs offered !

[Philsuma]

So Glenn...do tell us your specific ideas to help them.

[frogfreak]

Nothing specific, but a few donations can do a lot of good. Set aside a few frogs FS and donate the $$ Done.

[Philsuma]

Sounds good. As for my ideas, I'm thinking bigger though. I'd like to try to help them make 25-50K with the right species.

[imzenko]

As for the upcoming imports, it does seem that there is quite a bit of demand for the auratus, which should help Tesoros continue. As someone else mentioned, its ashame about the truncatus, they are cool, and I have always liked the aurontaenia, they are a very underappreciated frog.

I wonder why , nobody has them. wonder how the black foot terribilis are selling. the thing is if its a "rare" frog everyone wants it. if they would of started out with the "new" auratus he probably would of done better in the beginning.
the truncates, I like mine because of the pattern. and in the hopeful future maybe some aurontaena.

[Stu&Shaz]

It still all boils down to successful business return, investment and profit margins. Business 101. Applies to conservation efforts or selling plastic star wars toys alike.

And, if this business failed? We'd be so happy about that...We should be asking ourselves what we can do to help. The way I see it, this is a very unique situation and opportunity as well.

Totally THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^

From what Chris (Sherman) has shown us ,we have one guy trying really to bring us genuine sustainable Colombian dart frogs. From everything that has been said he has moved mountains to get to where he is now.He hasn't yet been able to get the the most "desirable" frogs,so he needs a bit of help from us, in the short term. Guys is this really something we need to debate? shouldn't we be organising a bit of a whip round(that might not translate,I mean get together and make a few donations),to bolster Ivan in these early stages of his operation. If someone would like to organise something we will donate.

Look,not only will it help him a bit,but there is a bigger picture in that the guy will know he has the hobby backing him,it will be good for his moral. Look we want these frogs,we want them brought to us in the right way. Isn't this a no brainer?

Oh Chris, I don't think you are telling folks what they should do with their frogs,I think you are outlying your concerns and putting forward ideas ,whether I agree or not matters not,it's the sentiments behind them that I admire so much.

Phil I think in the long term if Ivan can keep things rolling and get to the large oophaga,then he won't have problems,but everything that Chis is saying is drawing me towards the guy needing a hand NOW.



best

Stu

[Philsuma]

Just because we are debating it, doesn't mean we aren't supporting it.

We are in a bit of a lull and downturn for Dart Frogs here, that I believe anyway. As evidenced from Frog Day...the spending is a lot more selective and cautious right now.

[Stu&Shaz]

Just because we are debating it, doesn't mean we aren't supporting it.

We are in a bit of a lull and downturn for Dart Frogs here, that I believe anyway. As evidenced from Frog Day...the spending is a lot more selective and cautious right now.

Sure bro,open honest debate,is always great for us...all of us,( no BS no agendas just open honest debate)in no way did I mean to imply otherwise.

Phil I'm a simple guy,I ain't eloquent or profound,I'm not wealthy,I would more than likely not be able to afford to grab some of Ivan's large oophaga,but with that simplicity comes this: If folks can dig in their pockets to buy $800 frogs,then walk the walk,don't give the guy words of support back the guy with your hard earned. Yes it's hard here too,yes I too believe that frog sales are down on when I entered this with Shaz,but money has never figured much in why we keep frogs. But I'm not really sure what that has to do with giving our hobby a chance at genuine legit Colombian frogs.Explain that for me please kiddo.

For me at least this is very simple, if Chis's words are true and I utterly believe him. If folks want to keep the dream frogs then give the guy whom is making this happen a pick me up. Show him WE care about what he is doing for US(the hobby) !! words don't do this,mate actions speak louder than words,always have...always will.

Dude I'm scratching my head here,I thought you lot would be all over this like a rash picked up in bankok. hock:

bring it on

Stu

[RichFrye]

I have yet to read up and educate myself about the whole project and exactly what it entails.
With all the projects coming and going I think that is the prudent choice.
From what I have head so far it sounds very interesting.

[RichFrye]

If the adults do the work of raising the tads.....aside from proper enclosure and supplementation....where does experience vs inexperience come into play as far as getting offspring?

I can't speak to these paru, but my guess would be all the other husbandry that comes with harder to breed obligates. And, there are actually some intangibles that you pick up watching all your frogs day in and day out for decades at a time...

What makes these so different then the other dart frogs to get to breed? I feel your answer is vague....could you provide examples?

Like what about these is so much different then say pumilio....or other darts. Do they have the same troubles in the wild....which would mean there is something missing in captivity if they do not. Any insight into what the missing element could be?

Most darts given a pair and proper enclosure will breed.....why not these?

I've never kept this species.

There are a number of factors which help facilitate the long term health and well being , including 'normal' breeding.
What people need to realize first and foremost is that in the wild one pair of darts need only produce one other pair of offspring which will live to breed to keep a population static.
This means one pair in over a decade...
Keeping this in perspective those who keep these tougher to breed obligates are generally producing more offspring that will reach adulthood and eventually breed also than in-situ. So, 'good breeding' or 'tough to breed' are certainly subjective terms.
I don't have any experience with histos or sylvats, but I would say that on the 'hard to breed' scale grannies would fall in very close to the same difficulty as histos and sylvats.

Understanding that pretty much everywhere you find these tougher to breed obligates there are seasonal changes and thus the need to replicate these cycles as best we can.
In CR when the rain stops (sometime usually around November, but their seasons are shifting a bit also, just like ours) and the sun starts baking everything the frogs head for little nooks and crevices and do not eat or breed nearly as often as in the months of May to October, the 'winter'/rainy season.
I try to cycle my grannies down for at least three months out of the year and by virtually stopping the misting this helps in the task.
Food stuffs are also cut back, but with all the micro-fauna in my vivs I am not certain at all their in-take goes down very much. But I do feed less FFs aside from what total intake may be.
There is ALWAYS the potential to make a better viv if it is larger. There are plenty of great 30 gallon breeding vivs for these tougher to breed obligates, and in my mind they have the potential to be even greater if they were 60s.
The obvious benefits of more micro-climates and more substrate, micro-fauna and leaf litter have been gone over for years now.
One thing I see with relative new-comers to tougher obligates is the fact that they don't always let the frogs settle in and become comfortable with the viv. This settling in period can take quite awhile. I have seen grannies take up to a year to get comfortable with a new enclosure . Trimming and making constant ( relative term ) 'adjustments' is not the way to go. Get the viv set up with plants that don't need a lot of hands on care , set it up a close to 'perfect' as possible and leave the frogs alone.
DO NOT shield the outer movement around the viv from the inhabitants as this just blocks the normal happening of seeing you every once and awhile and the peekaboo effect does nothing but startle the frogs. If the viv is going to be in a high traffic area it is best to let the frogs get used to that high traffic right off the bat.
I don't get worked up over rotations of supplements and never worry about whether or not my frogs are getting enough 'vitamin of the day', their supplementation for whatever reason, has been just fine for the past decade with the same exact two pink and baby blue labels...I have read that 'x, y and z' are going to supplement our frogs right into superfrog status , but I tend to wonder how an escapee survives in my basement for 8 months without a single dusted fly...maybe it's not quite true that bug-stuffs alone that are found in and around our long set-up vivs are not enough to sustain a healthy frog.
The single most important need for my grannies is the huge amounts of composted leaf litter. I actually have vivs which started out with nothing for substrate but leaf litter. Magnolia, Oak and Maple, which break down slowest to fastest in the order listed are my go-to litters. As many varieties of sustainable micro-fauna go into the litter. Young and old alike eat even the tiniest of stuffs, including mites (which I have also watched terribilis picking off).
WAY too much light is being used in most vivs I see and I can not express enough the need to tone down the lighting. If high-light plants are the goal, then darts should not be.
UV radiation is also a form of supplementation and there may or may not be certain species which benefit soly from the correct amount...what that 'correct amount' is, we don't yet know. I do know that it stands to reason that extremely low light areas with frogs that are found in dark areas most likely are not getting very much UV in the wild.
I do not mist nearly as often as many do. I am not sure if the water flushing broms or cans in others' vivs is 'too clean' or if this fact of lesser misting helps at all in breeding healthy froglets, but it maybe worth noting. The fact that I have very low ventilation (ventilation is needed fro many plants, not many darts) means I don't have to mist as often as those pumping drier air into a viv.

I am sure I have left some things out.

[RichFrye]

I have yet to read up and educate myself about the whole project and exactly what it entails.
With all the projects coming and going I think that is the prudent choice.
From what I have head so far it sounds very interesting.

I have read that there will no longer be paru sylvatica shipped next year. Much of the future obligate true and legit breeding programs should take note and learn from that short run.
It is extremely difficult to get the in-situ obligate eggfeeding frogs to produce (froglets to adulthood) nearly as well as we can breed them in vivs.

[Stu&Shaz]

Rich,a quick note of thanks for the above but one post,much to be dwelt on thankyou

regards

Stu

[ChrisK]

Understanding that pretty much everywhere you find these tougher to breed obligates there are seasonal changes and thus the need to replicate these cycles as best we can.
In CR when the rain stops (sometime usually around November, but their seasons are shifting a bit also, just like ours) and the sun starts baking everything the frogs head for little nooks and crevices and do not eat or breed nearly as often as in the months of May to October, the 'winter'/rainy season.
I try to cycle my grannies down for at least three months out of the year and by virtually stopping the misting this helps in the task.
Food stuffs are also cut back, but with all the micro-fauna in my vivs I am not certain at all their in-take goes down very much. But I do feed less FFs aside from what total intake may be.

Yeah one interesting thing is that I don't really "cycle" mine but they seem to cycle themselves, they won't breed for 6-8 months then all of a sudden froglets popping out of the water, in the summer though the AC is costantly running so that could lower humidity, like in winter the heat is on and lowers it also.

[Sherman]

From Black Jungle via Facebook:
"NOT LOOKING GOOD FOLKS! Black Jungles goal to sell 50-100 of Tesoros frogs by October 7th is pitiful. To this date, we have sold ZERO! On September 14th at American Frog Day, Black Jungle announced that we would import sustainable captive bred frogs from Tesoros of Colombia. Richard even offered a presentation at frog day to try to reiterate the importance of supporting the sale of these frogs so that funding for future imports of would not fall by the wayside. If this American importation of rare Colombian frogs is going to happen, then we need pre-orders NOW. If we do not receive the pre-orders, it is presumed there is no true interest in the publics support of this program. This is unfortunate because we finally have our chance to offer long sought after legal and legitimate imports of these rare and highly desirable poison dart frogs."

[Philsuma]

Again Chris..what exact species and prices are we talking ?

I sincerely hope that we don't 'crucify' the American Frogger if this falls through. The economy is still in the shitter AND we are looking at a Govt shutdown.

I could purchase 6 frogs myself right now, but it would be a 'desperation purchase' for me, as I'm not set-up for them and I'm still 'between 2 states - FL and PA and now maybe 3 RI. I just can't pull it off myself nor could I coax, cajole or otherwise 'cheerleader' others to do what they won't on their own.

Bad timing for Frog purchases...bad TIMING.

[Sherman]

http://www.blackjungleterrariumsupply.c ... c_152.html

I'm not crucifying anyone, just passing along information to those that might be interested. 10 years in the making. Unfortunately there seems to be a shelf life on this project. Yup timing stinks, what are you going to do?

[MyDumName]

Feel guilty for not buying the Columbian frogs with our price increase!!

Yeah see how UE sales are without the inflation.

[Sherman]

Sweet, buy them from Mark. That's cool too.

[Rusty_Shackleford]

I agree this is horrible timing. While I fully support the intentions of this project and I would love to purchase two, or perhaps three different species, I don't have the money for it. I'm worried about just staying in my house and not having to sell off the collection I already have. If they would have done this 5 years ago, or a few years from now things probably would have gone much better.

[Philsuma]

Two more things:

1. If this effort is mainly, or even partially designed to take away monies and business from Panamanian Imports and 'smuggled' E.U imports then I say it WILL have worked - even if it only reaches 10% of it's target goal. It will have succeeded in breaking ground for other projects at other times. For the longest time, Panamanian imports have been unchallenged, so even in possible 'defeat'...the ball is indeed rolling and I applaud that.

2. Even though the economy is still down, there are those of you who are indeed Cash Flush and able to 'extend'. Like ANY smart investor, if you can invest in some of these breeding groups, I fully believe they WILL pay off for everyone down the road.

Some....

Thoughts.....

[RichFrye]

In attempting to learn more about these new projects I find it very hard to get good hard data.
Why are the people on this end not speaking up about the projects they are involved in? If I were importing these frogs and needed some boosting of sales I should as heck would not be sitting on my typing fingers...
MP and BJ and some guy in Toledo may want to start posting, especially if things are as dark for this awesome opportunity as it seems.