Intro from Oklahoma

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Lanthia
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Intro from Oklahoma

Postby Lanthia » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:32 am

Hi Froggers,

I'm Sheryl from Edmond, OK.

Last month I walked into my lfs and saw a vivarium with some darling little orange/black dotted frogs. I was fascinated so the owner of the shop invited me to her house to see her critter room. The whole experience wowed me. (And that chameleon, gorgeous...maybe next project.) Anyway, I am hooked.

After all my research, this is my understanding of what I need in order to create a good habitat for df's. Please correct me about any of my conclusions.

I am using the 25 gal. tank, 24 x 12 x 20. Although I have 35 years with fish, I am a beginner with pdf's so as much as I want to hop right in, I am restraining myself. I think I want D. tinctorius "Robertus" as my first pdf's. On one vid (out of about the 1401 I've viewed) the"Robertus" were climbing so my taller tank will work.

I have made some fake rocks to use with the cork on my background. Of course, I originally was going to have a drip wall using these rocks but after reading all the "no water in the vivarium" comments, I am rethinking this. Doesn't a drip wall help keep up the humidity? This is where you can slam me because you know I am waffling....

My biggest question is about the substrate. My friend uses none. She uses hydroton, mesh, then leaves. Her viv's look great and she has to thin out plants quite often. I don't know how her microfauna population is.

On another forum I read about making your own clay substrate which supposedly increases froglet's calcium intake. It was an old post. Any comments on this?

I think I am going with ABG. But then I read where it bogs down and should be cut with something? What about long fiber sphagnum as a layer between dirt and leaves...needed?

I found a lot of conflicting info out there and would love some guidance.

Thanks for the help,

Sheryl

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Philsuma
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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby Philsuma » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:12 am

Lanthia wrote:Hi Froggers,

I'm Sheryl from Edmond, OK.

Last month I walked into my lfs and saw a vivarium with some darling little orange/black dotted frogs. I was fascinated so the owner of the shop invited me to her house to see her critter room. The whole experience wowed me. (And that chameleon, gorgeous...maybe next project.) Anyway, I am hooked.

After all my research, this is my understanding of what I need in order to create a good habitat for df's. Please correct me about any of my conclusions.

I am using the 25 gal. tank, 24 x 12 x 20. Although I have 35 years with fish, I am a beginner with pdf's so as much as I want to hop right in, I am restraining myself. I think I want D. tinctorius "Robertus" as my first pdf's. On one vid (out of about the 1401 I've viewed) the"Robertus" were climbing so my taller tank will work.

Tinctorius species frogs are an excellent first choice ! While bold and they do indeed climb, they still grow into large and heavy bodied frogs and as such, benefit from more horizontal 'floor space' than vertical. Your enclosure size listed should be good for a pair -1.1 - 1 male and 1 female or even 2 males if you don't want to breed them. Try not to acquire 2 females as females of this species are very scrappy. Actually if your tank is only 12 inches wide or long or flat, than that is really too small. Reverse the dimensions and you'll need a low 'flatter' tank for heavy bodied dart frogs, in the long run.

I have made some fake rocks to use with the cork on my background. Of course, I originally was going to have a drip wall using these rocks but after reading all the "no water in the vivarium" comments, I am rethinking this. Doesn't a drip wall help keep up the humidity? This is where you can slam me because you know I am waffling....

Those frogs will have no need of a drip wall ect. They will do just fine with hand misting every couple days with a hand pump mister bought at Lowes or home depot for $10.00. Resist the urge to build water features until you have some time and experience in the hobby. Hand misting with a glass top covering at least 85-90% of your top is what you want.

My biggest question is about the substrate. My friend uses none. She uses hydroton, mesh, then leaves. Her viv's look great and she has to thin out plants quite often. I don't know how her microfauna population is.

Microfauna, while never 'bad' to employ and cultivate is really only 100% nessa for pumilio and tiny frogs that raise even tinier froglets in the tank. Your Tincs are going to do just fine with melanogaster fruit flies as the staple and good quality superfine powdered supplements. You must commit to culturing fruit flies or your frogs will suffer. Flies are a must have staple.

On another forum I read about making your own clay substrate which supposedly increases froglet's calcium intake. It was an old post. Any comments on this?

Like the drip wall, a clay background or substrate is more of an advanced frogger thing. You do not need it at all. ABG is fine for plants - it's made for plants, really. Keep researching false bottoms and substrates here on Dart Den.

I think I am going with ABG. But then I read where it bogs down and should be cut with something? What about long fiber sphagnum as a layer between dirt and leaves...needed?

Yep, long fibre sphagnum is good as well as a layer of magnolia and live oak leaves on top.

I found a lot of conflicting info out there and would love some guidance.

No worries Sheryl. Just take your time and research and ask questions. Look up another thread here on Dart Dart that contains some relevant info and then just 'tack' your post/ question on to it. Do not worry about posting on 'somebody else's thread' - it's ok. that's how it's done here on forums- unlike facebook. Just find a relevant thread anywhere here and tack your post/question onto it.

Thanks for the help,

You're welcome,and good luck!

Sheryl

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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby Philsuma » Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:09 pm

and by all means, if you wish...just tack on questions here on this thread. It's all good -either way.

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Lanthia
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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby Lanthia » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:12 pm

"Tinctorius species frogs are an excellent first choice ! While bold and they do indeed climb, they still grow into large and heavy bodied frogs and as such, benefit from more horizontal 'floor space' than vertical. Your enclosure size listed should be good for a pair -1.1 - 1 male and 1 female or even 2 males if you don't want to breed them. Try not to acquire 2 females as females of this species are very scrappy. Actually if your tank is only 12 inches wide or long or flat, than that is really too small. Reverse the dimensions and you'll need a low 'flatter' tank for heavy bodied dart frogs, in the long run."

I have a 29 gal. tank, 30x12x20...would that work in the long run?

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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby Philsuma » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:33 pm

I can't really remember what comes first and second...\

30 inches long
12 inches wide/ deep
20 inches high

is that right ?

well, it gives them 6 more inches, I guess. Those specific Tincs get really big and heavy when they get full grown - about a year to 1.5 years. Heavy frogs would like to spend more time on the ground and less time climbing. That's not bad for 2.

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Lanthia
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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby Lanthia » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:33 pm

Yes that is right.

So what would be a good size for these dfs when they are full grown? Would there be a better beginner/intermediate frog for the tank sizes that I have. I have had some of my fish for 15 years...I take very good care of the creatures whom I bring into my life. Raising ff is a given...and anything else they need to be their healthiest.

It is important for me to fit the right frog to the right size tank. Some of the frogs that I have seen have been called intermediate due to breeding difficulties. Not a concern for me at this point. Perhaps those would be a better fit to the tank I have? So say a beginner/slightly intermediate df?

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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby Philsuma » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:43 pm

Smaller frogs are certainly 'do-able' as first frogs. Pumilio are actually quite easy to keep -it's the trick of raising the froglets that are admittedly hard, that give that genus a label of 'hard to intermediate'.

The best enclosure is a 'front opening' one. If you are newer and have 2-3 small thumbnails in a traditional 'top opening' tank, they are more inclined to shoot out whilst you are feeding / cleaning ect.

Top opening low tanks like the traditional sizes of 20 gallon 'long' and 40 gallon 'breeder' are very good for those tinc and 'tinc-type' heavy bodied frogs.

My advice is continue to wait and post and read on the forums. If you have found a fellow frogger close by, than chances are, you will be able to acquire or pick from many different types when you are more comfortable. In the meantime, I will bump some threads for you to check out. I already bumped an 'enclosure - high vs low thread that I hope you read and found helpful.

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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby joneill809 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

Hi Sheryl! Welcome to the hobby! Here are my two cents as a fellow Robertus enthusiast!

A 29 is likely an "ok" starting point for two Robertus. They are a big tinc and active. I have a 3.1 wild caught group in a 120 gallon viv and they use all of it :) I started with a pair in an 18-18-24 and they did ok but it seems like they really came into their own when they moved into the 120. My female Robertus is my biggest frog and she spends most of her time up in the hardscaping on cork bark ledges. The males are quite active foraging all over the viv. They are a favorite on the frog tour because they are big and always out. Mine are high yellows which make them really stand out against the black background in their viv.

lf you can go bigger, I would consider it. My Robertus just looked cramped in the 18-18-24 (heavily terraced with full access to the upper portions of the viv). Like Phil said I would look at the Exo terra or zoomed terrariums. If you prefer the 29, smaller thumbnails or dwarf tincs like Bakhuis Oyapok or Lorenzo (25 to 35mm svl) would work well. But since Robertus appeal to you, I'd look at a bigger viv first. I think the 24-18-24 with some terraced hardscaping would be great for a 2.1. In the long run I think you will be happier with the extra depth and the front opening access compared to the 29.

I like Turface for my substrate with ABG pockets for specific plants. I get my Turface from the local John Deere shop in a giant bag (you'll need more anyway for all those other vivs you will be making ;) ). It's a great long lasting material that holds humidity well. I have switched all my substrates to mostly Turface.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby!
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Lanthia
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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby Lanthia » Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:33 am

Thank you for your welcome and advice Jim. It was your web site where I saw the Robertus and decided they were the frogs for me. They still may be if I decide to do a second viv. I am semi-retired so right now my budget is to use the equipment I have and see how I like the hobby.

A year ago I decided to try fancy goldfish in one of my 75's. The tank has been a disappointment in that it is too sterile looking and I have not come to love the fish. I have 2 orandas and a ranchu that I will try to rehome. If I like the pdf hobby I can use this tank for Robetrus.

I have read lots of posts about using Turface with ABG so this is the way I will go also. I'm off to look at smaller froggies.

Thanks guys!

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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby joneill809 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:02 am

I don't want to discourage you from Robertus - they are a great locale - just cautioning you for the long run when they are 50 mm+. The other consideration is if you buy Robertus froglets, it's going to take a year to grow them out. You can always start with the 29, see if the hobby "sticks" and then upgrade them to a new enclosure later. I am just cautious in my advice :)

See if you can find local hobbyists too. That is a great way to keep costs down and make local frog friends. We split bags of Turface, bulk cork orders, clippings, cultures etc.
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby Gope » Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:48 am

Which turface do you use Jim?

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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby joneill809 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:57 pm

I use Turface all pro sport. I have a picture of it in place in the 120 here:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=7981&start=40#p61651
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

Gope
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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby Gope » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:11 pm

Is there much difference between all pro sport and MVP? Hope I'm not hijacking the thread. If so feel free to delete or move.

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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby joneill809 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:27 pm

Not sure. Chuck mentioned all pro sport a few years ago and I started with that and stuck to it. I'll add some photos of the all pro sport to the other thread Phil bumped when I get a chance...
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

Gope
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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby Gope » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:26 pm

I did some research and from what I can find it's the same stuff. Found this on a fish forum.

" Response from turface

You ask a very common question. John Deere Landscape has a private label of our Turface products just under the name they use. Below is an equivalency for you.

Quick Dry = Game Saver - This is the finest/smallest particle size (nearly dust) and is used mostly as a drying agent.

MVP = All Sport - This is the most common product with a the largest variety of particle sizes. the largest being about 1/16 of an inch and smallest being just larger then Quick Dry particles.

ProLeague = All Sport Pro - This is the most consistent particle sizes Basically the middle of the spectrum you find in MVP, very few of the largest and smallest particles you see in MVP with 95% being in the middle.

Other variations of ProLeague only provide color options, all the particle sizing is the same."

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariu ... 08855.html

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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby goods » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:01 pm

I've used the MVP in all the tanks I've built in the last two years and am very satisfied with it, so you should be good to go using either that or the size Jim suggested.
ZG

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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby joneill809 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:33 pm

I may have to try a bag of MVP just to see the difference.

Well we pretty much hijacked your thread Sheryl but it's an interesting discussion on what a few of us use for substrate :)
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Lanthia
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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby Lanthia » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:23 am

joneill809 wrote:Well we pretty much hijacked your thread Sheryl but it's an interesting discussion on what a few of us use for substrate :)


Not to worry Jim...substrate was one of my questions.

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Lanthia
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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby Lanthia » Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:54 pm

Jim,

How deep is your Turface layer? I am trying to figure out how much to buy for the 29 gal. Thanksj!

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Re: Intro from Oklahoma

Postby joneill809 » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:09 am

I have used Turface as thin as one inch all the way up to four inches in the back of some vivs. I don't like "flat" looking vivs so I use Turface to create interesting slopes in the vivariums and I end up with thick patches in some areas. I have also used it to fill cork flats cut to fit in the corners of vivs that form ledges. In the case of my 120 gallon viv I used about 40 lbs of a 50 lb bag :). I usually terrace my vivs with multiple levels so that increases the square inches of horizontal space I need to cover.

If I had to guess, I'd say a bag would last for 5+ Vivs for me, so likely 5 to 10 lbs per viv depending on the hardscape. I tend to use a lot, probably more than most people. I pay about $20 for a 50 lb bag at the landscape shop, though I think Chuck mentioned a few years back he got his closer to $15.

You can also use extra for temp vivs and springtail cultures. I forgot to mention it's pretty dusty so be sure to rinse well. It's far more dusty than aquarium gravel.
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/


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