What is "Frog Flipping" ?

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby RichFrye » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:07 pm

Bill Schwinn wrote:I personally think the term Flipper, being used to describe the behaviour at hand, is a poor choice of word.If you read your own description of a Flipper, one can see some of the behaviour is ok at certain times, not at others. It is also apparent that what you find offensive is a line of behaviour, not the single act of selling frogs.So I think Unethical Wildlife Dealer is a good place to start, it may not be cool sounding like Flipper, but does cover a line of behaviour the hobby finds offensive.


Bill, couple quick questions.
Where do the breeders' hobby responsibility and/or ethical tugs start when approached by re-sellers who are known to continually do destructive works in the hobby?

" I have sold him frogs before, and as far as my transactions with him they were very good, no problem pre paying with him."

The above statement is a testament to dealing with said re-seller, and it appears the only thing you chose to note was that he paid you promptly.

I'll note this , Taron will sell to anybody with cash. Business ethics OK? Sure, it's the gold old US of A. Hobby ethics, he sucks the big 'n . You choose to sell to a re-seller who has continually run into issues telling the truth. You have given no indication at all you'll do anything other than repeat this, I'm sure, as long as he has " no problem pre paying ".

I guess I don't get it . But I sure would like to.


Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby RichFrye » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:42 am

I really would like to know how the guys who breed way too much to solely sell directly to known hobbyists choose who they sell the wholesale lots to.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby RichFrye » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:59 am

I somewhat recently read something from a poster (BIG-time poster) who 'asked' essentially ;
'What if I decide to get a group of Caucheros and I need to get a big group so I know I'll personally get a breeding group. What do I do with all the extras? Is that flipping if I need to sell off extras?'

The answer is yes. It is flipping and cherry picking to sell the least desirable and possibly off sex ratiod extras to whomever has cash. Nobody in this day and age in our hobby needs to import or work with importers to get a single breeding group of Caucheros. And the ones that are more tough to come by or hard to breed...well that's where buddies come in, as opposed to anybody with cash willing to pay for a marked up second. Buddies may want to work with those frogs too. And then , you get the relief of knowing that you have buddies to trade offspring with to increase bloodlines. As opposed to selling to people who don't know what they are doing , killing import pums left and right.

How many times does anybody see F2 pums from WC advertized?
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:58 am

RichFrye wrote:I somewhat recently read something from a poster (BIG-time poster) who 'asked' essentially ;
'What if I decide to get a group of Caucheros and I need to get a big group so I know I'll personally get a breeding group. What do I do with all the extras? Is that flipping if I need to sell off extras?'

The answer is yes. It is flipping and cherry picking to sell the least desirable and possibly off sex ratiod extras to whomever has cash. Nobody in this day and age in our hobby needs to import or work with importers to get a single breeding group of Caucheros. And the ones that are more tough to come by or hard to breed...well that's where buddies come in, as opposed to anybody with cash willing to pay for a marked up second. Buddies may want to work with those frogs too. And then , you get the relief of knowing that you have buddies to trade offspring with to increase bloodlines. As opposed to selling to people who don't know what they are doing , killing import pums left and right.

How many times does anybody see F2 pums from WC advertized?

Hi Rich,surely if the guy picking his group of pums to breed from,has picked what he desires from said bought in group and then tells the guy he is selling the surplus to,exactly what he has done,and what he assumes the sex to be of the surplus,then that isn't flipping. It fascinates me, this term,you guys use.I've never heard it here.This seems to be an ethical debate,so if the seller is 100% honest,and maybe in this particular case has not even made a profit(just for debating sake),then i don't see a flipper in action.If said leftover frogs are substandard,in any way i understand what your saying but i see no real implication of why this should be so....if there is educate me please.
As you can see i'm still more than a little confused by the use of this term. My assumption that this is used for a guy that deals in frogs no regard for whom he sells,the frogs, how they are QT etc is starting to feel miles out.
Oh and damn me i'd love to have loadsa frog mates to run proper breeding programmes keep records and all that fascinating stuff,we have some great breeders here some super guys that give me help at the drop of a hat but i never see folks talking about the above,breeding programmes... maybe i'm just too new to be part of this yet.
Stu

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby RichFrye » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:58 pm

Stu&Shaz wrote:
RichFrye wrote:I somewhat recently read something from a poster (BIG-time poster) who 'asked' essentially ;
'What if I decide to get a group of Caucheros and I need to get a big group so I know I'll personally get a breeding group. What do I do with all the extras? Is that flipping if I need to sell off extras?'

The answer is yes. It is flipping and cherry picking to sell the least desirable and possibly off sex ratiod extras to whomever has cash. Nobody in this day and age in our hobby needs to import or work with importers to get a single breeding group of Caucheros. And the ones that are more tough to come by or hard to breed...well that's where buddies come in, as opposed to anybody with cash willing to pay for a marked up second. Buddies may want to work with those frogs too. And then , you get the relief of knowing that you have buddies to trade offspring with to increase bloodlines. As opposed to selling to people who don't know what they are doing , killing import pums left and right.

How many times does anybody see F2 pums from WC advertized?

Hi Rich,surely if the guy picking his group of pums to breed from,has picked what he desires from said bought in group and then tells the guy he is selling the surplus to,exactly what he has done,and what he assumes the sex to be of the surplus,then that isn't flipping.


Yes, it is flipping. It may just be a more ethical way of doing it. Got the frogs in, got them out quick. That's flipping. Quarantine , true quarantine plays no part in quick flipping.


Stu&Shaz wrote: It fascinates me, this term,you guys use.I've never heard it here.This seems to be an ethical debate,so if the seller is 100% honest,and maybe in this particular case has not even made a profit(just for debating sake),then i don't see a flipper in action.



It is an ethical debate. But just because someone was truthful about his/her doings does not mean they did not flip a frog.
To buy a group of WC frogs one day, cherry pick them the next, and then sell them to anybody while 'being honest' yet the next day is flipping. One day in, next day out is a good indication.



Stu&Shaz wrote:
If said leftover frogs are substandard,in any way i understand what your saying but i see no real implication of why this should be so....if there is educate me please.
As you can see i'm still more than a little confused by the use of this term. My assumption that this is used for a guy that deals in frogs no regard for whom he sells,the frogs, how they are QT etc is starting to feel miles out.
Oh and damn me i'd love to have loadsa frog mates to run proper breeding programmes keep records and all that fascinating stuff,we have some great breeders here some super guys that give me help at the drop of a hat but i never see folks talking about the above,breeding programmes... maybe i'm just too new to be part of this yet.
Stu


In the U.S. we can get CB frogs. To feel the "need" to buy a large groups of Caucheros to get a single pair, only to have to sell off any left overs is crazy. Supporting the hobby vs. supporting the businesses. It always comes down to $. If a person wanted to buy a pair of Caucheros from a hobbyist here, no problem at all. But that pair will cost more than the price of two Caucheros from an importer. $$$$$$.
If you don't have froggers talking about proper breeding programs in the UK I would be very surprised. I know of several I talk to who do.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:36 pm

It's kinda of like selling used cars...

If you have a used car on your lot:

1. How many previous owners did it have ?

1.a. Why did the previous owners sell it ?

2. Can you be 100% sure it is safe and sound ?

3. Are you willing to stand by or guarantee that ?

Dunno if that's the best analogy as living animals are 1000 times more precious than a car. At least to me and quite a few people I know, anyway. Hmmm..maybe that analogy is much more telling, now that I think about it.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:52 pm

Just had a nice long discussion with a member here a while ago....

The ARE re-sellers of frogs that are GOOD businesses and people. Not all re-sellers are 'flippers'.

The word 'Flipper' is usually a negative connotation and we should only apply to that percentage of businesses that are truly under the bar....truly bad with their practices like no quarantine and gettin' em right out the door when the come in.

Not everyone who re-sells frogs is a 'Flipper'.....we should only tag the bottom feeders with that tag. Just my .02

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Rusty_Shackleford » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:28 pm

I think it would take a minimum of 6 weeks to flip a frog. That's time enough to get appropriate fecals done, treatment if necessary and general QT is included in that 6 weeks. The fast get em in get em out flipping is not doing it the right way. Even if done correctly, potential customers should know the flipper didn't breed the frogs, and should probably have the right to know who did in case the buyer would like to contact them.
Just some thoughts.

Phil was my previous post edited, or was it just my computer screwing up?
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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:45 pm

^ must have been your comp....

6 weeks / 42 days of quarintine and 2-3 fecals seems like a good start, but then lets not call it "flipping". Going to that level of care is "selling" and not "flipping".

The term "flipping" is reserved for the bad people that cut corners and don't care.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Rusty_Shackleford » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:06 pm

I agree Phil, to me flipping is get the frogs in one day, sell them the next or quick as you can, or in some cases selling the frogs before you even take posession of them. There should be a better term for what I described above, maybe selling is good enough. Really taking that much care you are a "frog broker"
Flipper has a seedy sound to it, frog broker sounds better.
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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Armson » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:53 pm

Philsuma wrote:It's kinda of like selling used cars...

If you have a used car on your lot:

1. How many previous owners did it have ?

1.a. Why did the previous owners sell it ?

2. Can you best 100% sure it is safe and sound ?

3. Are you willing to stand by or guarantee that ?

Dunno if that's the best analogy as living animals are 1000 times more precious than a car. At least to me and quite a few people I know, anyway. Hmmm..maybe that analogy is much more telling, now that I think about it.



Sounds like a carmax commercial...

So who is going to start frogmax?



-Byron

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:40 pm

This thread is about the definition and discussion of the hobby term "Flipping" and not Taron or any singular personality.

I'm not worried about anyone's 'rep' ....if it's true and can be confirmed and first hand info....post it. This is the Forum for the big-boy information but it MUST be tight. None of this gossipy / veiled reference crap.

"I heard from so and so" - that won't even come close to cuttin' it here.

"Stay Tuned" - WTF is that ? How it that not B.S gossip of the worst kind.

"Check Fauna" - there's OLD shit on there about Taron...NOTHING new. If there is something new / recent....please let me know directly and without the suspenseful alluding.

Erasing extraneous BS posts here will start soon.

Any additional hijack or gossiping....and I guess my arm will be sufficiently twisted into employing some time-outs.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby RichFrye » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:53 pm

Philsuma wrote:
"Check Fauna" - there's OLD shit on there about Taron...NOTHING new. If there is something new / recent....please let me know directly and without the suspenseful alluding.



Phil, almost nobody has the time to track down every single update , factual but not needed tid bit, judge gavel hammered down, contract signed event on every single scuzzball, dirtbag, thief , liar, cheat, flipper, etc., etc who's popped up in the last very trying years. If we did here, not in a court of law (read that real long and hard people) we give the a-holes all our ammo at once.
Some people can be trusted and believed without them going through the third degree or jumping through hoops to get warning out. Those of us who constanly warn against said scumbags are the ones NOT to hastle, rather do some digging WITH them.
That said;



New on Fauna:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/ ... p?t=210500



Gotta say I knew John G. had taken a spin for the wacco-worse (including taking my breeding loan Reginas and selling them) but prison time....
Last edited by RichFrye on Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby RichFrye » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:23 pm

One reason I post outside the Feedback section is the fact that guests (anybody not a signed in member) can not view Feedback. And I really want non-members viewing my stuff.

There are 2 memebrs and 12 guests viewing this right now...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:50 pm

...sigh.....

There is a reason we have the Feedback forum.....it's subforum that is only viewable to members for a REASON.

That reason being....the TOS must be acknowledged and therefore no one can claim "Me and my 15 friends just stumbled onto Dart Den quite by accident and we are appalled by what we ACCIDENTLY saw and read".

If a 'member of the dart frog hobby community' cannot take 10 minutes to sign up and join Dart Den, then what do I really owe them ? Do I owe them pictures and feedback...I don't think so.

IF...if...that doesn't make sense or you don't agree with it....fine, but this forum will NOT behave any other way.

You WILL NOT leave ANYTHING remotely construed as Feedback or 'choice info' on people in ANY other subforum here.

I hope that's crystal clear. Go ahead and use your usual Frognet system for 'alerting' the hobby.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby RichFrye » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:02 pm

Phil,
please check your PM box for info I sent days ago about Mitch Naquin not being able to log in. Thanks.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:09 am

The day you sent me that PM...I sent this to Mitch via the email that you provided - jnaquin3 "at gmail dot com"

Hi Mitch,

Rich Frye told me you are having trouble signing up on DD…what issues are you having ?

Cordially,

Phil
Owner - Dart Den, Your online Dart Frog Hobby Community since 2004.
portal.php

To date, I have not received a response.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:30 am

Would not know PM related info unless you respond to my PM. Thanks.

Now, how 'bout the question I asked days ago via PM about someone possibly being back in town?

Points I'm making... at times the flow of info is not working, and at times the forum is not...I'd love to post pics I can see, and others' pics too. I know you are working on both.

But this should all be in another thread. Just points on information flow, just as pointing out that feedback belongs in feedback, in an ideal, sterile, Dendro- world.
And, I know you are on the side of outing bad guys Phil. And you get pressure from a-hole thieves and liars who threaten to sue because, that's a criminal reflex, it's what scammers do. But your boilerplate agreement pretty much insures you against idiots who think they can sue YOU over SOMEONE else's true-and-therefore-non-libelous words. Litigious damage has not happened once since I've been around, not going to happen either . I'd guess.


Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:20 pm

I'm doing the best that I can. I sometimes get 4-5 PM's a day and I do 'miss' getting back to one or two. I may have not replied to your "mitch' PM but I'm pretty sure I replied to your 'who is back in town' PM.

The browser issues is a real son-of a-biatch due to our gallery plug-in. Internet Explorer -SOME versions, not ALL...doesn't like our gallery and pic viewing is admittedly wonky. This was discussed 3-4 other times in the "problems" forum along with suggestions like using Firefox and Chrome and Safari and alternate browsers - all of which work fine for pic viewing.

I use three different browsers for ALL of my web surfing for different reasons and applications. NOT a big deal to download and use more than one. A lot of people do this.

We ARE working on the fix but it ain't gonna happen overnight. I put the call out 8 times, for anyone that can code / work with php and no one replied. I'm trying.

About lawsuits...that's only half they reason for the Feedback forum and members only permission. The other reason I want all the personal info / experience / links / criminal stuff /feedback placed solely in the Feedback subforum is that's the proper place for it and it doesn't clutter up threads like this and get them off track and all jacked up.

I think the flow of info here is working JUST FINE. I like it. I'm happy with it.

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Re: What is "Frog Flipping" ?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:43 pm

Philsuma wrote:I'm doing the best that I can. I sometimes get 4-5 PM's a day and I do 'miss' getting back to one or two. I may have not replied to your "mitch' PM but I'm pretty sure I replied to your 'who is back in town' PM.


You asked me who I thought so-and-so was, I told you, you told me. I then asked if that person was back in town (because then it all falls into place. Please PM me with that specific answer )...no reply. I totally understand you being busy though. Just pointing out that the flow does not always work exactly. Not sure where it does always work. I'd guess nowhere. And I know you are working hard on a number of issues. Thanks.


Philsuma wrote:The browser issues is a real son-of a-biatch due to our gallery plug-in. Internet Explorer -SOME versions, not ALL...doesn't like our gallery and pic viewing is admittedly wonky. This was discussed 3-4 other times in the "problems" forum along with suggestions like using Firefox and Chrome and Safari and alternate browsers - all of which work fine for pic viewing.

I use three different browsers for ALL of my web surfing for different reasons and applications. NOT a big deal to download and use more than one. A lot of people do this.

We ARE working on the fix but it ain't gonna happen overnight. I put the call out 8 times, for anyone that can code / work with php and no one replied. I'm trying.

About lawsuits...that's only half they reason for the Feedback forum and members only permission. The other reason I want all the personal info / experience / links / criminal stuff /feedback placed solely in the Feedback subforum is that's the proper place for it and it doesn't clutter up threads like this and get them off track and all jacked up.

I think the flow of info here is working JUST FINE. I like it. I'm happy with it.


Again, probably best in another thread. And tech issues aside;

To answer why this feedback has popped up in the first place.
Flipping is the topic.
Taron is (while able to peddle darts to anyone with $. Able means not literally driven out of the hobby , as in the past) a known flipper.
Taron was brought up as an example and I simply asked a breeder who sells to him on a regular basis what his thoughts and ethical tugs were , as a professed hobbyist, on selling his own frogs to a guy who habitually hurts our hobby. Proven habitual "Bad Guy" on Fauna ...No response.
Taron is one of the biggest known flippers selling darts (was, MAY be a better term. But I'm sure there are those who will STILL welcome him back with open arms) and part of the problem, not the solution.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476


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