Data collection = better frog keeping

General Dart Frog Questions and Comments. Care and Husbandry
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Sherman
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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Sherman » Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:40 pm

Come on Phil, I understand downplaying the utility of being able to match habitat requirements for common dart frogs, but the terrarium hobby can encompass so much more than just that. Flowering plants, insects, little lizards, etc.. With the public's desire for "rare" and "new" terrarium inhabitants, it only makes sense to constantly improve environmental controls to aid future successes.

#TeamByron

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joneill809
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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby joneill809 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:03 pm

Philsuma wrote:I still think you are over-thinking a lot of the fine data

You can never OVER think data :)

I see a Raspberry Pi with temp/RH and barometric pressure sensors in a ruggedized logging unit that we can drop to the guys at CRARC for in situ monitoring. Then an accompanying app and device for replaying the patterns in your viv :)
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Philsuma
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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Philsuma » Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:14 pm

you guys are killing me...

Gope
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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Gope » Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:04 pm

I joined fieldherp Jan 23 and still haven't heard from them. Maybe mods on vaca?
Byron I haven't received a pm from you. I don't know what data I can collect for you while in C.R. but let me know what you're thinking. I will take lots of pics of course.

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Armson
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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Armson » Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:21 pm

Sorry Gope, Will send you something tonight, usually only check boards when I am at work and need to keep from publicly beating someone.

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Armson » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:34 am

Gope,

Just sent you the most inconsistent rambling PM you will probably ever receive!

*remember to put the frogs in a balloon before you swallow them. The balloon will throw off the x-ray machine and get you past Customs.

-Byron

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Armson » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:04 am

Crap!

I meant Data... put the "data" in a balloon...

Gope
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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Gope » Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:16 am

Got it Byron. And I'm not swallowing anything. :) The way my digestive system has been(not) working it would never be seen again!

goods
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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby goods » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:16 pm

Sherman wrote:Come on Phil, I understand downplaying the utility of being able to match habitat requirements for common dart frogs, but the terrarium hobby can encompass so much more than just that. Flowering plants, insects, little lizards, etc.. With the public's desire for "rare" and "new" terrarium inhabitants, it only makes sense to constantly improve environmental controls to aid future successes.

#TeamByron


If the end goal is to better emulate their natural environment to a T, then why don't we first start with things that are much easier to do than installing chillers and trying to influence barometric pressure? Bigger, biotopic tanks, proper phytotelmata for tad deposition, introducing seasonality to husbandry practices are all significantly easier than re-plumbing a frogroom for complete control over environmental conditions. I agree, relative climate data is definitely useful, and some people are data freaks (using that as a term of endearment :wink: ), but there are limits to how useful that data is in practice. With that said, the person who flips on his/her mistking to rain heavily with the onset of a thunderstorm will have equal success as the person who knows that the barometric pressure in Tingo Maria drops from 31 in. to 30.789 in. when a thunderstorm passes and maintains humidity at 68.9% because of a datapoint.

If you just want the data to obtain a better understanding of the environment, that's understandable, but let's not go crazy with trying to perfectly replicate those parameters.
ZG

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Philsuma » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:23 pm

Holy Geez, Zach is agreeing with me ?!?

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Sherman
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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Sherman » Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:20 pm

goods wrote:If the end goal is to better emulate their natural environment to a T, then why don't we first start with things that are much easier to do than installing chillers and trying to influence barometric pressure? Bigger, biotopic tanks, proper phytotelmata for tad deposition, introducing seasonality to husbandry practices are all significantly easier than re-plumbing a frogroom for complete control over environmental conditions. I agree, relative climate data is definitely useful, and some people are data freaks (using that as a term of endearment :wink: ), but there are limits to how useful that data is in practice. With that said, the person who flips on his/her mistking to rain heavily with the onset of a thunderstorm will have equal success as the person who knows that the barometric pressure in Tingo Maria drops from 31 in. to 30.789 in. when a thunderstorm passes and maintains humidity at 68.9% because of a datapoint.

If you just want the data to obtain a better understanding of the environment, that's understandable, but let's not go crazy with trying to perfectly replicate those parameters.


I see nothing crazy about trying to better control the environments we already artificially maintain.

I encourage larger tanks, with natural deposition sites. Creating proper seasonal adjustments starts with a lot of data collection and will be more accurate and consistent if it can be automated.

Trying to influence barometric pressure would be silly. I propose a scenario where during the "wet season", the MistKing turns itself on at the onset of a local thunderstorm, regardless of the current conditions in Tingo Maria.

Chillers will give rise to High Elevation Terrariums.

There is plenty of room for advancement in the box hobbies, and frankly, I'm excited.

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby goods » Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:54 pm

I, personally, do not align myself on the pro-"automation for everything" side of the hobby. I find that you're much more in touch with your animals when you actually have to look into each of your tanks on a few times a week basis. It helps develop an attention to detail that I find is much more important when trying to maintain these "hard to keep/breed/grow" plants and animals.

Like I said, if you want the data because you're interested in the data, I respect that. I'll go further to say that a general knowledge of the climate these animals comes from is crucial to long-term success, but I can obtain and track that information on the weather app on my iPhone and adjust my husbandry accordingly.

There's no need to "give rise to high elevation terrariums". Cloud forest tanks have been in use and successful for years. See all the success in maintaining Uroplatus, Abronia, Highland Nepenthes and Heliamphora, Papau New Guinea orchids, etc. Could using a chiller become a possible tool in the tool chest? Sure, but they're just that...it isn't anything groundbreaking.

Making things automated and easier often just further leads people into the cookie-cutter, "only one-way" mindset. Actually applying the knowledge at hand adjusting or altogether changes methods is where you find innovation.
ZG

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Sherman
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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Sherman » Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:25 pm

After perusing some of the weather data sites, I am wondering about the placement of the sensors they use. I imagine them to be a few feet off of the ground in a shaded location, and all are comprised of data from a single point. I would be interested in finding (or helping to create) a more dynamic picture of these places by understanding multiple locations within one area.

Barometric pressure and rainfall are generally consistent throughout an environment, but temperature and humidity can vary significantly within few meters based on sensor placement. Temperature is generally lower and humidity is higher within leaf litter at midday than the ambient air temps (or is it?). Surface temperatures in the sun can be exceedingly hot compared to shaded areas.

Byron, is this the type of data you seek? With the wide range of habitats our frogs are from, do you have a specific locality you would be interested in concentrating on?
Jim, do you have a favorite sensor(s)?

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Armson » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:05 pm

Well obviously I should have started this thread many years ago....

Ok lets set a few things straight first.
I am looking for all data I just started with the environment. Everyone seems to be focusing on the weather and this is simply the first chapter of the book.


Zach you are up first..
goods wrote:If the end goal is to better emulate their natural environment to a T, then why don't we first start with things that are much easier to do than installing chillers and trying to influence barometric pressure? Bigger, biopic tanks, proper phytotelmata for tad deposition,introducing seasonality to husbandry practices are all significantly easier than re-plumbing a frogroom for complete control over environmental conditions.

You are correct, there are other things that would be much easier. However my frog room isn't finished yet. So it's going to much easier for me to start planning and implementing this now rather then "re-plumbing a frogroom"
goods wrote:Bigger biopic tank

Yep doing that, Chris can confirm that.
goods wrote:proper phytotelmata for tad deposition

I have spent an enormous time on this already and this is one of the data points I am hoping to acquire from Gope. The good thing about this is that there is a ton of data about water quality in specific bromeliads.
goods wrote:I agree, relative climate data is definitely useful, and some people are data freaks (using that as a term of endearment :wink: ), but there are limits to how useful that data is in practice. With that said, the person who flips on his/her mistaking to rain heavily with the onset of a thunderstorm will have equal success as the person who knows that the barometric pressure in Tingo Maria drops from 31 in. to 30.789 in. when a thunderstorm passes and maintains humidity at 68.9% because of a datapoint.

I want to know if Oophaga SuperRareicus only calls during certain times of the year or if there is an increase in calling that can be matched with any weather event. If I can show that O superrareicus or dentrobates Amazingtitycus increase breeding during a certain time of year or weather variable. I think it would be extremely useful.


sherman wrote:Byron, is this the type of data you seek? With the wide range of habitats our frogs are from, do you have a specific locality you would be interested in concentrating on?
Jim, do you have a favorite sensor(s)?

Actually this is going to be pretty standard across the board which is why I started on this particular issue. quick pressure = storms



-Byron

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby auratusross » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:57 pm

Im surprised about the lack of enthusiasm towards this post. I personally think what you are trying to achieve and working towards is great for the hobby and hat off to you mate! Whether it be trying to simulate their habitats more accurately, Nutrition or understanding their natural behaviors in any shape or form, this should be supported, however seemingly big or small!! We all have a lot to thank to the first guy who placed a petri-dish under a hide in his vivarium...im sure that seemed almost laughable at first!

Its only anecdotal evidence but I have an example to give that supports the theory. I have bred a frog here in the UK that only me and one other person have managed to do so currently here. A morph of Galactonotus, some would consider Galactonotus a "harder" species to breed, i just think they are a more seasonal breeder than we give them credit for. I would not consider anything hard to breed as long as you understand their biology/triggers to make this happen (the goal of the opening post?) although yes you can get lucky so to speak and create the correct environment "by accident" , but thats not good husbandry, understanding the triggers or aiming to is in my opinion.

This particular galactonotus was first bred by a friend in approximately late November/December time. Then no breeding up until around the same time the next year, coincident? (or not??) as at this time of year my pair also bred for me for the first time. Both bred within weeks of each other after us both trying various triggers for breeding throughout the year. After speaking to each other we spoke of particularly bad weather in the different areas we live in(low pressure?) I am also of the understanding that the rainy season is from december to april in their natural range coinciding with the "bad weather" here. I have had another clutch of eggs recently and i am curious to see if and when they stop breeding. As this could reinforce the theory, even though there are a plethora of variables not mentioned. I think it does coincide with the theory that low pressure and replicating this in a vivarium could lead to greater breeding success....im sure people on here could give many many examples of finding eggs after storms even if they didnt change anything husbandry wise in the vivarium to what they usually do at that particular time but especially if they heavily misted around the time of low pressure. Also i will point out there has been a massive increase in calling over periods of bad weather/winter here.

Although not a new theory I personally believe weather and pressures outside of the vivarium certainly can play a part in breeding frogs in captivity. Is low pressure a must with certain species? Im not sure but its a possibility!

Just a few thoughts, Ross

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Armson
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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby Armson » Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:55 pm

See Phil, the British guy gets it!

It's mostly tracking the data that I want to do. If there was a particular event that triggered breeding, I would like to know what it is. The Article write up on fruit fly media is exactly what I am trying to accomplish.
http://tulane.edu/sse/eebio/people/cori ... 2013-2.pdf

I want to know if changing a particular variable. Will enhance breeding success with a particular frog. I have no problem looking into nutrition but so many other people are doing it and ignoring other aspects. Maybe the other aspects don't matter, but if they do it's going to be extremely useful information.


-Byron

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Re: Data collection = better frog keeping

Postby joneill809 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:41 pm

Forgot to respond to a few things :)
Sherman wrote:After perusing some of the weather data sites, I am wondering about the placement of the sensors they use. I imagine them to be a few feet off of the ground in a shaded location, and all are comprised of data from a single point. I would be interested in finding (or helping to create) a more dynamic picture of these places by understanding multiple locations within one area.

The weather data from most of the sites I have looked at (Suriname / Brazil / Peru) are spotty at best. In some cases it looks like the data is manually recorded from a variety of instruments / observations, as there are months to years from some stations with no data, and in some examples, different sets of recordings for different variables on different days, e.g. temp and humidity only on one day, precip / pressure / cloud cover on others. My guess is some of these stations are really people just recording observations when they can, which is still pretty cool anyhow.


Sherman wrote:Jim, do you have a favorite sensor(s)?

I use Lascar USB temperature and humidity loggers in viv. They are kind of expensive at $90, and they use a weird 1/2 AA battery, but they are easy to use. It may be an easy way to start a program with Wikiri or CRARC if you want to get better data. Donate a few, and have them place the loggers in interesting spots then upload the data. Long term if you want lots of cheap coverage in a variety of areas concurrently, some of the new Raspberry Pi units with a cheap temp / rh sensor may be an interesting project.


I understand much of this is "overkill" and that we don't need all this detailed data. For me, it's the curiosity of what the weather patterns in the region are, and, as I get geeky on data collection devices and information sharing, a possible source of revenue for the likes of CRARC or other conservation groups. It would be neat if we put together a data sharing network with "paid" access to sensors placed by these conservation groups. Admit it - we're all a bit looney when it comes to display vivs, with high end lighting and misting setups. How cool would it be if you could subscribe to weather locale data that would link up your lighting and misting intervals to what's happening in SA? The revenue would go to a good cause, and geeky keepers could have a fun story to tell.
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
lorenzo - schwinn line|NAIB true sips|fantastica nominant
http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/


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