Has anyone tried lowering their lighting?

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RichFrye
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Has anyone tried lowering their lighting?

Postby RichFrye » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:29 pm

I've read more and more lighting threads recently. I'm wondering if anyone has ever noticed their darts doing better and acting much more natural when lowering lights' photon output. Or, have there ever been long term cases of raising photon output for the benefit of the dart alone. I'm guessing not on the later.
To my knowledge their is absolutely no benefit to the darts by added photons, rather many plants used are not indigenous to the darts' habitat but need higher light photon output.
I know for a fact that lowering photon output to minimal (indirect/ambient at times) levels helps breeding , activity, and natural activity in many darts.
So, are we willing to light the hell out of out vivs solely for the benefit of our non-indigenous plants , while our darts potentially 'suffer'? It seems so. Why?

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby hutch0203 » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:12 am

Rich, This does make sense and after reading your last posts about lighting I have been thinking about this. Can you share more of your experience with this and what type of lighting and plants that you are using. i know for breeding you use many film cans but what type of plants do you prefer for darts that don't care for film cans? Thanks Garrick
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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:33 am

hutch0203 wrote:Rich, This does make sense and after reading your last posts about lighting I have been thinking about this. Can you share more of your experience with this and what type of lighting and plants that you are using. i know for breeding you use many film cans but what type of plants do you prefer for darts that don't care for film cans? Thanks Garrick



Garrick,
First I'd like to emphasize that plants do not stimulate breeding. Darts 'care for' anything (pretty much , really) that holds small amounts of non-flowing water. They'll use anything around. Coconut shells, old oil cans, garbage of many varieties.
So, once again, plants are not needed for breeding at all. They are eye pleasing and somewhat help with cleansing and production of O2. None of which are necessary for healthy dart husbandry.
That said, they also serve a purpose for egg laying and some shelter for hiding , so I try to use the ones that like low light and have broad leaves for laying sites. Pepperomia, pothos, wandering jew, ect. Butt ugly as a film can. And very effective.
I use cheap fluorescent lights. T8's and spirals. One 23 watt spiral (a 100 watt incandescent equivalent) for my 90 gallon 2'x 2' x3' vivs. One single T8 on one of my 160 gallons, which in my mind is still a bit too much and will be moved before too long.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby gary1218 » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:52 am

Since the back room in my house where I keep my frogs does not get the full effect of the central air conditioning it's LIGHTS OUT for me for the summer months. I have a few skylights in that room so there is some ambient light during the day. Each of my tanks have 2 large broms in them and lots of leaf litter. I think the only effect on the broms is that they won't be as red as they might be with the lights on them for 10 hours. No big deal to me.

For the frogs, I am starting to see them out more and I still hear a lot of calling.
GARY

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:20 pm

gary1218 wrote:Since the back room in my house where I keep my frogs does not get the full effect of the central air conditioning it's LIGHTS OUT for me for the summer months. I have a few skylights in that room so there is some ambient light during the day. Each of my tanks have 2 large broms in them and lots of leaf litter. I think the only effect on the broms is that they won't be as red as they might be with the lights on them for 10 hours. No big deal to me.

For the frogs, I am starting to see them out more and I still hear a lot of calling.



There are a number of broms that will do well in low light . But most all of my vivs have nowhere near enough circulation (baring thermals in some) or ventilation to keep any broms alive for any period of time. But, the myth of externally/mechanically driven circulation and ventilation needed (baring some thermals) to produce healthy darts is just that, a huge myth.

We have two now who have found benefits to our dartswith no/low light. I'd be interested in any other input on benefits of more or less light/photons. I'm a bit (very) surprised there's been no other input, noticing the amount of posting recently about lighting on other threads here...and my posting of actual dart habitat which is just this side of pitch black. I can dig out other photos to coincide with light lower than that I see on pretty much every viv pic on any thread on any board. Kind of something worth at least thinking about. No?



Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:21 pm

gary1218 wrote:For the frogs, I am starting to see them out more and I still hear a lot of calling.


What frogs are you working with Gary?


Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby gary1218 » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:21 pm

RichFrye wrote:
gary1218 wrote:For the frogs, I am starting to see them out more and I still hear a lot of calling.


What frogs are you working with Gary?


Rich


I have primarily thumbs, and most of those are different imitator species.

Still looking to pair up my vanzos I got from Mark Pepper a while ago. Hopefully there's a breeder up in Canada that's going to come through for me in that regard very soon.
GARY

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby D3monic » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:54 pm

Hmm, if I was just breeding frogs in the basement or some back room of the house somewhere I am sure I would settle for just pothos and a single twisty bulb. (3 of my vivs are light with just that) but all 10 of my vivs are in my Main living room of the house and are as much for visual astetics as homes for dart frogs. Most of my more grown in tanks have a nice balance of lighting and darkness. The top canopy layer of broms blocking out most of light to the bottom layer. Of course the frogs can be found in either sections throughout the day.
"He that is slow to believe anything and everything is of great understanding, for belief in one false principle is the beginning of all unwisdom" LaVey

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:56 pm

Some great theories and arguments for BOTH sides of the lighting discussion - higher and lower.

It definitely bears more investigation and experimentation and both levels of light could and SHOULD be attempted by even the moderately experienced hobbyists. This is the only way we can grow as a hobby - by putting out opinions and info in threads and reporting back to the hobby at large.

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby D3monic » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:59 pm

On my newest rack I have the lights on two seperate power strips so i can vary intensity. On a normal schedule I have them programed to turn on one set at dawn and about two hours later the second set turns on and similar for dusk. At random times i will just leave one set off just to give a little reprive.
"He that is slow to believe anything and everything is of great understanding, for belief in one false principle is the beginning of all unwisdom" LaVey

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:46 pm

D3monic wrote:Hmm, if I was just breeding frogs in the basement or some back room of the house somewhere I am sure I would settle for just pothos and a single twisty bulb. (3 of my vivs are light with just that) but all 10 of my vivs are in my Main living room of the house and are as much for visual astetics as homes for dart frogs. Most of my more grown in tanks have a nice balance of lighting and darkness. The top canopy layer of broms blocking out most of light to the bottom layer. Of course the frogs can be found in either sections throughout the day.

I'm quite sure that if people looked they'd find quite a few low light, indigenous plants that look nice. Not botanical garden , primped and preened nice, but nice. People are actually stuck in a rut of making the viv look as nice as possible , when the one fact I know is that more than one dart species, from more than one locale does better with very low light .
So , if we want to sacrifice what is known, not speculated upon as better for our frogs for the betterment of plants not found in our darts' natural habitat ...it is a sacrifice made by us against our darts .
If we have broms in a canopy and it''s the area where depositing can be made, it's no surprise to me that they will be found there eventually. What also does not surprise me is that you will see them even more in spots not photoned for broms' color 'needs' if deposit sites are in lesser/no light.
In the wild they don't hang (breed and live) in areas with a "nice balance" , they hang out in the shade, pretty much all the time, with the acception of Black Jeans and of course the random straying.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:56 pm

Philsuma wrote:Some great theories and arguments for BOTH sides of the lighting discussion - higher and lower.

It definitely bears more investigation and experimentation and both levels of light could and SHOULD be attempted by even the moderately experienced hobbyists. This is the only way we can grow as a hobby - by putting out opinions and info in threads and reporting back to the hobby at large.



These are not theories or opinions Phil. And so far there is no argument.
Darts live mostly in darker areas (photos to prove it..and you can attest also) . Fact.
Test it out. Turn down, or better yet off, one of your brightest vivs and see what happens. I pretty much guarantee you will see your frogs more often. And I have heard no "theory" to the opposite or straying at all from my contention.
Once again, can anyone say they have seen better , more natural activity when they boosted photons?
I'm not saying that turning off your lights is a fix all or every single dart will react the same exact positive way. What I am saying is that I have found absolutely zero benefit to the dart , any dart, by adding light . I have found quite the opposite.
I think I need to add yet another line...
Mixed tanks, parasites and high light photon bombardment benefit the darts not at all.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:06 pm

You keep this up, you are gonna run out of sig space indeed.

I did a test....I took off my low level, entry, bargain basement fish tank light and strapped on that 65watt flood light - onto my 20 gallon high vert

and the Basti that was in that tank (grow out) not only became more active ( I watch this tank 2-3 times a day) BUT seemed to actually bask in the enhanced /higher light. I may only have 7 years with Darts but I go back to 1977 with keeping anoles and Geckos, so I am pretty sure I know what animal basking looks like. Coincidence.....just glad to have good light instead of purple fishy tank light. Perhaps. But an interesting oberservation and test, none the less.

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:14 pm

Philsuma wrote:You keep this up, you are gonna run out of sig space indeed.

I did a test....I took off my low level, entry, bargain basement fish tank light and strapped on that 65watt flood light - onto my 20 gallon high vert

and the Basti that was in that tank (grow out) not only became more active ( I watch this tank 2-3 times a day) BUT seemed to actually bask in the enhanced /higher light. I may only have 7 years with Darts but I go back to 1977 with keeping anoles and Geckos, so I am pretty sure I know what animal basking looks like. Coincidence.....just glad to have good light instead of purple fishy tank light. Perhaps. But an interesting oberservation and test, none the less.


I'm opting for coinsidence with other factors. And I suggest trying this with actual breeding groups for long periods of time. One lone basti does not an experiment make.
And for gods' sake, if you throw out the tired "I've got 20 years of herp experience so I know pums" [sic], I'm gonna slap you with a Roman purging vase. :wink: :D

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby Tony » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:20 pm

I'll give it a shot. I don't expect much of a difference with my tincs since they are always out waiting for food, but we'll see if there is any difference in my pumilio, galacts, and auratus. I just removed a tube from each of my fixtures, so my vivs are now lit by a single T8 tube with the exception of my auratus which now have no direct light.

I hear constant calling from my pumilio but they tend to scatter when I walk into the room, except for the El Dorado which may as well be mini tincs. I'll give it a few days and post whether or not I notice a difference under reduced lighting. I'll be very happy if it works, bolder frogs combined with a reduced electric bill is fine by me.

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby Philsuma » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:23 pm

Agreed. It was but a small documentation. Marcus (UK) seems to have done a lot more with this, and obviously is quite passionate about his findings.

I think, like most things....there may be some sort of middle ground here, somewhere.

I DO agree that we should not place plant growth on an equal husbandry pedestal with frog needs, but you can obviously see how intertwined exotic plant keeping is with frogs.

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:26 pm

Tony wrote:I'll give it a shot. I don't expect much of a difference with my tincs since they are always out waiting for food, but we'll see if there is any difference in my pumilio, galacts, and auratus. I just removed a tube from each of my fixtures, so my vivs are now lit by a single T8 tube with the exception of my auratus which now have no direct light.

I hear constant calling from my pumilio but they tend to scatter when I walk into the room, except for the El Dorado which may as well be mini tincs. I'll give it a few days and post whether or not I notice a difference under reduced lighting. I'll be very happy if it works, bolder frogs combined with a reduced electric bill is fine by me.


Give it a bit more than just a few days Tony. Report back in a couple weeks with clutches and activity. Unless they go nuts either way sooner.



I know it's not really what many people want to hear (plant sales, light sales, bright dart viewing , showing off plants in vivs, ect, .) but if you are reading what I say just to read what you want to hear...please put me on ignore. :D

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:29 pm

Philsuma wrote:Agreed. It was but a small documentation. Marcus (UK) seems to have done a lot more with this, and obviously is quite passionate about his findings.

I think, like most things....there may be some sort of middle ground here, somewhere.

I DO agree that we should not place plant growth on an equal husbandry pedestal with frog needs, but you can obviously see how intertwined exotic plant keeping is with frogs.


Marcus is passonate about photonbombardment or UVB basking? Huge difference.
Look at the real indigenous plants...and yes I understand. Them non-indigenous is purty.



Rich
Last edited by RichFrye on Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby Tony » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:29 pm

RichFrye wrote:Give it a bit more than just a few days Tony. Report back in a couple weeks with clutches and activity. Unless they go nuts either way sooner.


Will do. Would you mind posting some shots of your low light vivs? I'm curious to see how they are set up.

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Re: Has Anyone Tried Lowering Their Lighting?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:43 pm

Tony wrote:
RichFrye wrote:Give it a bit more than just a few days Tony. Report back in a couple weeks with clutches and activity. Unless they go nuts either way sooner.


Will do. Would you mind posting some shots of your low light vivs? I'm curious to see how they are set up.


Will do also, as soon as my ultra-wide angle lens is back with me. Hopefully next week or so.

Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476


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