albino Ranitomaya imitator "Tarapoto"- Pics

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Oddball (albino) Tarapoto - Pics

Postby BcsTx » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:36 am

Is the breeding pair both albinos?
No offense and I am glad they survived to adulthood but I believe breeding for specific traits is not good for the frogs or hobby.
-Beth

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Re: Oddball (albino) Tarapoto - Pics

Postby Adven2er » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:58 am

Yes they are both F1 albino (parents are unrelated). Why do you believe it is harmful to the frogs? Ive seen breeding projects that have taken years of breeding offspring back to parents to set certain traits. This is not the same thing. I have alot of respect for the hobby and will continue to do so.
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Re: Oddball (albino) Tarapoto - Pics

Postby hkt2000 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:17 am

No offense and I am glad they survived to adulthood but I believe breeding for specific traits is not good for the frogs or hobby.


Adven2er wrote:Yes they are both F1 albino (parents are unrelated). Why do you believe it is harmful to the frogs? Ive seen breeding projects that have taken years of breeding offspring back to parents to set certain traits. This is not the same thing. I have alot of respect for the hobby and will continue to do so.


I'm not sure if BcsTx is referring to inbreeding or breeding for color morphs (I believe BcsTx is referring to breeding for color morphs since BcsTx states that "breeding for specific traits"). But the belief that breeding color morphs is not good for frogs (or any animal) really has no foundation. And the belief that inbreeding is not good also is unwarranted, when done responsibly. Both different issues but related. When done properly and responsibly, there is no harm done.

If you look at the Devil's Hole pupfish, Cyprinodon diabolis, this species occurs in one habitat only and this habitat is restricted to a tiny pool in the middle of the dessert. The species has occupied this niche for thousands of years and has inbred over thousands of years - to the point where almost every fish is a genetic twin. It's survived this long and will continue to do so, provided the habitat remains undisturbed (unlikely).

Mutations (morphs) are the foundation of evolution, without mutations, there would be no evolution and life would come to a halt. While some mutations may appear deleterious, there is always a place for them based on habitat/environment/circumstance. Just look at the various animals that evolved in extreme habitats. One would think a mutation leading to the reduction/absence of eyes/vision would be deleterious, but for a fish living in a dark cave, eyes are unnecessary and that mutation proved to be beneficial.

These are just two examples, but there are many more out there. There are also many examples of inbreeding gone bad and mutation breeding gone bad. However, that happens when the breeding programs are not up to standard.

Inbreeding and mutation breeding can be of great value, when done responsibly, with accurate records kept and each animal evaluated individually before placed into a breeding situation.
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Re: Oddball (albino) Tarapoto - Pics

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:41 am

I am guessing that Beth is referring to the want for a natural representation of what the frogs produce in the wild.
The chances of two 'albinos' (those are hypomelanistic, I believe, not true albinos) breeding in the wild is extremely remote, and would be considered unnatural. Thus, purposely breeding two frogs with absolute recessive traits, related or not, is also considered unnatural.
As natural as possible is what many of us dart frog breeders strive to achieve. Especially when there are so many breeders who do not breed "properly and responsibly", or even know what proper , responsible breeding is ...this is not the snake hobby/business...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oddball (albino) Tarapoto - Pics

Postby hkt2000 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:49 am

RichFrye wrote:I am guessing that Beth is referring to the want for a natural representation of what the frogs produce in the wild.
The chances of two 'albinos' (those are hypomelanistic, I believe, not true albinos) breeding is the wild is extremely remote, and would be considered unnatural. Thus purposely breeding two frogs with absolute recessive traits, related or not, is also considered unnatural.
As natural as possible is what many of us dart frog breeders strive to achieve. Especially when there are so many breeders who do not breed "properly and responsibly", or even know what proper , responsible breeding is ...this is not the snake hobby/business...


I won't get into a big debate over this. But as you just pointed it, it does happen in the wild. However, how do you justify the statement that when it happens in the wild it's "unnatural"? There's no one in the wild pairing two hets together - which would make it unnatural. It happened naturally granted, such offspring have a low likelihood of surviving in that species's current habitat. But there's a reason the genes remain in the population. It may (as remote a chance as it may be) prove to be beneficial in a future environment/circumstance.
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Re: Oddball (albino) Tarapoto - Pics

Postby BcsTx » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:11 pm

Adven2er wrote:Yes they are both F1 albino (parents are unrelated). Why do you believe it is harmful to the frogs? Ive seen breeding projects that have taken years of breeding offspring back to parents to set certain traits. This is not the same thing. I have alot of respect for the hobby and will continue to do so.


While the parents are unrelated which is great, if I am reading correctly, you are breeding albino siblings to get albino traits.

From prior posts from others with albino juvies they did not make it, I believe breeding for albino via albino siblings is too close to the family tree and is extreme selective breeding, a better solution IMO would at least keep it more natural and pair one of the albinos with an unrelated non albino.
Last edited by BcsTx on Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oddball (albino) Tarapoto - Pics

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:12 pm

hkt2000 wrote:
RichFrye wrote:I am guessing that Beth is referring to the want for a natural representation of what the frogs produce in the wild.
The chances of two 'albinos' (those are hypomelanistic, I believe, not true albinos) breeding is the wild is extremely remote, and would be considered unnatural. Thus purposely breeding two frogs with absolute recessive traits, related or not, is also considered unnatural.
As natural as possible is what many of us dart frog breeders strive to achieve. Especially when there are so many breeders who do not breed "properly and responsibly", or even know what proper , responsible breeding is ...this is not the snake hobby/business...


I won't get into a big debate over this. But as you just pointed it, it does happen in the wild. However, how do you justify the statement that when it happens in the wild it's "unnatural"? There's no one in the wild pairing two hets together - which would make it unnatural. It happened naturally granted, such offspring have a low likelihood of surviving in that species's current habitat. But there's a reason the genes remain in the population. It may (as remote a chance as it may be) prove to be beneficial in a future environment/circumstance.


What's wrong with debating?
I said the chances of two 'albinos' breeding in the wild would be extremely remote. Unnatural, odd, not usual, pick any term. It's not likely or often happening. Not a natural occurrence.
Bigger chance for two hets to meet and breed, but obviously still not often or in large numbers.

Now, I fully understand how species evolve and how mutations play a huge role in evolution. We are not discussing that now though, we are talking about what is and what will be best for our hobby, and the frogs now in our hobby.
To represent a wild population of dart frogs I choose not to purposely breed het to het, and I certainly do not breed albino to albino...because if you think that two wild, healthy, albino dart frogs will meet in the wild and produce healthy albino offspring , well, show me one single case of this ever happening , please. I would find that very, very unnatural.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oddball (albino) Tarapoto - Pics

Postby Adven2er » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:04 pm

I was kind of hoping this thread wouldn't devolve into a debate. Believe me, I get the unnatural pairing argument. There are already so many non-wild type color morphs that are widely accepted by the hobby. Super blue auratus, Chocolate Leucs, Lemon drop tincs, Fine spot azureus, No-dot citronellas, Gold dust bastis... etc. Granted some of these are found in the wild but they are being bred for thier traits. BTW I am not trying to produce these in great numbers. They have one film can and 1 brom that holds water. I think they should be able to go through the natural life cycles that any other frog can. I am hesitant to pair them with normal frogs as I believe it is possible that it is the reason others have perished. Please don't try to put me in the same category as the smugglers, cheaters and hybridizers. My frogs are healthy and legal. They are beautiful and I get a great sense of enjoyment from them. I really don't buy the sibling pairing argument. Of course not the ideal situation but hardly devastating.
Rick

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Re: Oddball (albino) Tarapoto - Pics

Postby Philsuma » Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:07 pm

I'm on the fence on 'albinos' and here are some bullet thoughts from me, on this...

Just like in 'real life" (other than frogging) there are all shades of grey. This issue is one of them.

Rick is a long-term, good-for-the-hobby, conscientious person. If he was a 'kid' f'ing things up, I would act a lot differently.

I have no reason to believe Rick is trying to market a 'Dodge Viper" of frogs and soak, squeeze and bilk the hobby, especially newbs into paying him hugely inflated $$$ for designer frogs.

I don't buy into the inbreeding / sibling paring thing for all the reasons stated above. We only need to visit the Sipilliwini regions - veritable islands surrounded by savannah that prohibit any breeding other than what has historically been in that area...and the animals in question ? Dendrobates tinctorius 'Azureus'.

Now anybody trying to make a name for themselves by trying to make this hobby into the next Ball Python cluster F....then the gloves come off, for me anyway.

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Re: Oddball (albino) Tarapoto - Pics

Postby BcsTx » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:40 pm

Rick, no "debate" just questions or opinions I would hope you would expect these when posting on a public forum for all to see that there would be the above.
As far as chocolate leucs, sky blue azureus or other "projects" done with PDFs I am against them.
Your frogs do what you want if you feel comfortable with it have at it.
I do disagree with your comment on mixing them with non albinos because there are frogs out there that have that trait ie: your unrelated pair.
Just my .02
-Beth

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Re: Oddball (albino) Tarapoto - Pics

Postby DrNick » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:06 am

Philsuma wrote:I don't buy into the inbreeding / sibling paring thing for all the reasons stated above. We only need to visit the Sipilliwini regions - veritable islands surrounded by savannah that prohibit any breeding other than what has historically been in that area...and the animals in question ? Dendrobates tinctorius 'Azureus'.


Phil, are you suggesting that the populations of each island arose from a single pair of frogs? If not, the situations would seem to be incomparable?

If we presume that the island populations are as inbred as you say (I don't know...), then their genetic diversity and therefore population health are in decline - unless they are somehow contradicting some of the general rules that we know to govern the biology of most higher organisms, or they have very high turnover. If we take the replication of nature to the nth degree then you could argue that we should also replicate this decline in the hobby, but there certainly seems to be no argument for applying this to other non-inbred species/local morphs?

When we talk of decline, this is obviously long-term. That doesn't mean it shouldn't factor into our husbandry... When we talk of inbreeding in a small sub-set of a small hobby, we are also talking orders of magnitude difference in numbers of individuals compared to naturally inbred populations. I find the comparison pretty unbelievable, but admittedly have never researched it thoroughly.

To the OP - I don't think you've done any thing 'wrong' and would probably have done the same myself out of curiosity. I do however think it would be wrong to promote/distribute these and perhaps let a genie out of the viv that would be very difficult to wrangle back in....

Nick

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Re: albino Ranitomaya imitator "Tarapoto"- Pics

Postby RichFrye » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:23 am

One other thing to consider it that at some point in time, if Rick chose, the parents or offspring or both/all could be crossed back to what we know as 'standard' representations of a Tarapoto. The recessive hypomelanistic trait can be 'watered down'.
This is not possible for those who venture into the opposite end of the husbandry spectrum, hybridizing.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: albino Ranitomaya imitator "Tarapoto"- Pics

Postby jellyman » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:37 am

Phil,
Can we pull the drama out of this thread and start it's own drama debate thread. Some of us were interested in the developement of the frogs not all the back and fourth debate.

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Re: albino Ranitomaya imitator "Tarapoto"- Pics

Postby RichFrye » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:40 am

Drama???
Husbandy (posted in the Breeding section...) , science and civil discussion is what I am reading.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: albino Ranitomaya imitator "Tarapoto"- Pics

Postby goods » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:11 pm

One thing I haven't seen mentioned with these yet is the greater difficulty of raising these aberrant offspring to adulthood. These froglets seem to be a bit more fragile than their normally colored siblings. I would expect that weakness to be the same if not exaggerated with aberrant parents, so I don't think there needs to be much worry about these albinos taking over anyone's precious frog rooms or destroying their hobby.
ZG

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Re: albino Ranitomaya imitator "Tarapoto"- Pics

Postby RichFrye » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:56 pm

goods wrote:One thing I havemt seen mentioned with these yet is the greater difficulty of raising these aberrant offspring to adulthood. These froglets seem to be a bit more fragile than their normally colored siblings. I would expect that weakness to be the same if not exaggerated with aberrant parents, so I don't think there needs to be much worry about these albinos taking over anyone's precious frog rooms or destroying their hobby.


The breeding pair are both hypomelanistic and seem to be producing healthy offspring as of now?
I look at it like this , one reason I got rid of my hypo retics... , if I chose to breed recessive to recessive I would expect one of two general outcomes. I'm sure there could be a middle ground, but a swing to one end or the other is what I'd expect;
1. I get a bunch of healthy aberrant offspring which need to eventually be managed*. (those thumbs are fairly fecund)

Or;

2. I get a bunch of unhealthy aberrant offspring that need to be euthanized.


*It's pretty hard to manage 'albinos'/ aberrant frogs when I'm choosing natural representation of health and phenotype.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Oddball Tarapoto - Pics

Postby Philsuma » Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:01 pm

Adven2er wrote:Phil,
I believe Cindy's Tarapotos are Tor Linbo line. Mine are Understory line. If you consider Understory imports to be F1,my female would be F2 and my male would be F3 from other unrelated F2 parents. There have not been any sibling pairings involved. I guess it is possible that the imports could be related though.


WC or 1st generation, I think we would have a huge question mark as to the 'strength' of the breeding project but Rick is on F3-4. That tells me these frogs are 'stronger' than you believe.

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Re: albino Ranitomaya imitator "Tarapoto"- Pics

Postby Philsuma » Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:06 pm

jellyman wrote:Phil,
Can we pull the drama out of this thread and start it's own drama debate thread. Some of us were interested in the development of the frogs not all the back and forth debate.


I agree with Rich here. I see civility, inquiry, discussion and a splash of debate - all pretty healthy and accurate to be found in a hobby forum IMO.

Now if Rick would have contacted me and asked for some moderation, I would absolutely consider it. He did not, nor do I expect him to, knowing him personally as I do.

BUT

I do understand the desire to post things - mainly pictures, and not have them be 'open' for discussion. I don't know if it's been publically announced, but the policy here on Dart Den shall be, threads located in the 'Photograph' subforums will not be open to debate or discussion on the whole. THAT forum location will be much more in line with just showcased photos / pics.

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Re: albino Ranitomaya imitator "Tarapoto"- Pics

Postby RichFrye » Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:24 pm

Phil,
you may notice that 'Jelly' did not take issue until I wrote the word "hybridizing"...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: albino Ranitomaya imitator "Tarapoto"- Pics

Postby jellyman » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:18 pm

Philsuma wrote:
jellyman wrote:Phil,
Can we pull the drama out of this thread and start it's own drama debate thread. Some of us were interested in the development of the frogs not all the back and forth debate.


I agree with Rich here. I see civility, inquiry, discussion and a splash of debate - all pretty healthy and accurate to be found in a hobby forum IMO.

Now if Rick would have contacted me and asked for some moderation, I would absolutely consider it. He did not, nor do I expect him to, knowing him personally as I do.

BUT

I do understand the desire to post things - mainly pictures, and not have them be 'open' for discussion. I don't know if it's been publically announced, but the policy here on Dart Den shall be, threads located in the 'Photograph' subforums will not be open to debate or discussion on the whole. THAT forum location will be much more in line with just showcased photos / pics.


I do not think it has turned into drama yet but why does every thread have to turn into a debate. I simply suggested spliting the thread and let the debate continue without messing up th OP's thread.

And the OP may not have PM'd you but he did post "I was kind of hoping this thread wouldn't devolve into a debate." That should have been enough to seperate the dabate into it's own thread.
Last edited by jellyman on Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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