Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

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guppygal
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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby guppygal » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:35 pm

RichFrye wrote:
guppygal wrote:As a side-note, I'd really like to see the 'friendly' part of this board, especially for those of us who are thin-skinned.

k


Did you want that friendlyness from Casper, or Phil? Maybe from me or Beth? We're the mean guys and gall who're "bullying you", and "berating you". No victims, only volunteers...

Now, THAT'S funny!

Nah, y'all have made up your minds, one way or another, about me. Now, about the board....well, one can only hope :roll:

tclipse
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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby tclipse » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:13 pm

More often than not, animals that start out line-bred appear just fine for the first few generations, but end up being pretty unhealthy from a genetics standpoint (electric blue jack dempseys, high grade crystal red shrimp), and become exponentially harder to keep alive. Basically, taking an already limited gene pool and making it even smaller has the potential to harm the the long term viability of these species.

If the day comes when there are no more imports, we need to have enough frogs of each morph to keep them going for as long as possible... we've had enough species/morphs fall out of the hobby already.

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby Venutus1 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:31 pm

Hmmm...it IS too bad we can breed our frogs true to Nature...
because the simple fact is, there are no forces of Nature that shaped the evolution of these frogs at work going on in our glass boxes.

I am all about raising them for the largest, most robust frogs possible.

Cheers!
Todd
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Philsuma
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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby Philsuma » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:26 pm

Do you mean..."We CAN'T breed our frogs true to nature" ?

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Venutus1
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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby Venutus1 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:38 am

Philsuma wrote:Do you mean..."We CAN'T breed our frogs true to nature" ?


oh yea... thanks Phill, Yep....that's what I mean. Thanks for translating my brain. 8)
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markpulawski
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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby markpulawski » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:46 am

RichFrye wrote:
markpulawski wrote:I don't think anyone said their vivs are too small just that smaller frogs would be better accomodated in vivs that we keep, no matter what their size. There is a big difference between the 2 statements.

My bad.
To address this, no, smaller sized frogs will not be the answer to vivs not of optimal size or lacking in husbandry.


markpulawski wrote:... breeding frogs so they change and better fit these vivs is not the answer but it is good thought provoking conversation.


How thought provoking can it really be if you dismiss the idea in one quick swoop?? I do also, BTW.


Actually Rich I explained why I thought it was bad on page 1 of this thread in reducing genetic variability, this statement was just a quick follow up while watching football. I would say it is thought provoking, GG tried to suggest breeding morphs to smaller sizes to better accomodate life in captivity, though inherintly unhealthy for genetics I believe her intent was making life better for frogs in captivity. Which leads me to the thought provoking part, what frogs do better or are better suited for our standard viv enclosures? Small frogs, big frogs....I think a pair of Variabilis would do great in a 10 vert whereas a pair of Tincs would not fair so well, conversly a pair of Pumilio in my opinion need much more space than a group of 3 Terribilis. Experience teaches us how many of these frogs react in captivity and that's what these boards are all about, teachng those experiences to others...or at the very least try to help them from making the same mistakes (and losing frogs as a consequence) we all did early on.

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RichFrye
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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby RichFrye » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:56 pm

Unfortunately Mark, none of this really plays on the thought of breeding smaller frogs on purpose, other than it is not a good idea. Adequate space for each different species is a totally different topic. And "better life" is a topic which enters most of our posts.
As we both agree, again, no, breeding smaller frogs in not a good thing. Done deal.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby frogfreak » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:48 pm

Screw the smaller frog idea. I want a Tinc I can put on a leash! Think, human growth hormones. :mrgreen:
Glenn

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schreff
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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby schreff » Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:10 pm

frogfreak wrote:Screw the smaller frog idea. I want a Tinc I can put on a leash! Think, human growth hormones. :mrgreen:



Thats funny.

chuckpowell
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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby chuckpowell » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:43 pm

I think the quote below brings up an interesting discussion. We don't have to do anything but what we're currently doing to breed smaller D. tinctorius. 99.9% of all captive breed tinct are smaller than their wild ancestors, some significantly smaller. I see a few animals that start to compare with the size of an average wc animal, but very very few. Better breeding towards larger animals, in my opinion, is what we should be concentrating on in the hobby.

Best,

Chuck

guppygal wrote:Has anyone considered breeding tincs for size? I would imagine that a smaller tinc more suitable for smaller tanks (10g) could add another dimension, so to speak, to the hobby.
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Philsuma
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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:55 pm

Well said Chuck.

Do we have any evidence that the smaller enclosure size actually results in stunting the animals growth ?

While I personally feel that nutrition and vitamin supps have come a LONG way, we can never hope to provide anything close to the variation that animals receive in the wild.

And the most telling "fallout" from any dissatisfaction with any given CB animal for whatever reason (lack of colour, stunting ,unknown lineage) is.......to avoid them (CB) and seek to obtain WC animals. Shooting ourselves in the foot from a conservation standpoint.

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby guppygal » Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:24 pm

Philsuma wrote:And the most telling "fallout" from any dissatisfaction with any given CB animal for whatever reason (lack of colour, stunting ,unknown lineage) is.......to avoid them (CB) and seek to obtain WC animals. Shooting ourselves in the foot from a conservation standpoint.

Kinda sucks, doesn't it, Phil? I can't be the only one here who would rather have c/b frogs than w/c. I'd rather let the w/c stay where they belong. Of course, that would mean that there would be no pdf hobby, right? As it is now, there must be more than a couple of lineages of the different frogs in the hobby to keep line-breeding to a minimum. And here's a question for those who breed and sell thumbs - are y'all keeping any particular size of frog when you pair them up? I'm sure you wouldn't want to breed your thumbs into palms, so that makes me think that if there is a size variance in the smaller frogs, then the smallest frogs are kept for breeding.

Egads, here I go again, stirring up controversy, and I just know y'all were hoping that I had curled up and died somewhere :?

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:56 pm

Yeah...I did move my basement couch out and checked behind it to see if you were back there - all dried up. lol

There's no controversy with anything you are saying / asking - they are all good questions IMO.

Again...I don't know of a single hobbyist that selectively breeds for size - small or big. I just don't think it's done at all, based on all the info already stated.

The WC thing is a vicious cycle. ADD to that, the importers who push the WC stuff and the usual disinformation. It is truely a fine line we need to walk for betterment of the hobby. We need some WC animals....but how much is too much ?

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby EntoCraig » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:29 pm

This is a topic I have studied hard in the past, both with fish and more recently with frogs...

As many have stated before, the general consensus is No, you should line breed.

Dart frog hybridization and line breeding is a niche all in it own, because all the the tincs are the same species when it comes to basic genetics. Local, separation, and a lot of time have caused one species to turn into a lot of different morphs. Essentially, nature has done the line breeding for us! haha!

In general I see nothing wrong with line breed, but with tincs I do.

The issue with line breeding and tincs is the fact that the lines look similar to other frogs and its essentially a line of a line.

There is the whole possibility of extinction type argument, but I dont buy into that as much with the amount of frogs and breeders we have these days. However I do see that 90% of the people interested in line breeding seem to be uneducated in genetics and are 'shooting in the dark' when attempting to line breed.

I do believe that there are a handful of people who have the genetic background, as well ans the tank space and experience to breed successful lines that are unique and identifiable as separate.

This argument existed in the fish hobby for years until certain fish were so readily available, people wanted something new. Hybrids formed and some fish have almost been permanently 'muddied'...

I hope the the frog world and industry doesn't come to that. But as frogs become more and more available (and commercialized) you will see this topic come up more and more.

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby guppygal » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:07 pm

Well, I do have to rattle the cage every now n then. Otherwise, y'all would think that the wildfires got me. Not this time, thank goodness.

I agree that new blood is necessary for the betterment of the hobby, yes. The hard part is controlling the greed associated with the more coveted frogs and the way they are 'harvested', so to speak. There is one pet store near where I work that had the 2 w/c Cobalts which were sold to them by the 'reptile' guy, who didn't even know the morph or sex. What does an importer need to have in order to legally collect frogs from the wild? Are there guidelines that say who can import what from where?

It's not just about adding new blood to existing lines. The hobby has grown and the hobbyists are doing their own breeding without thinking it thru. New hobbyists will be line breeding - this is a given. It's hard enough to come up with a pair without spending the extra $$$ for shipping from different established breeders for different lines. If the hobbyists don't want to breed their frogs, they're deemed incompetent and cruel (I believe I read this somewhere). And while I'm on it, when a person wants to purchase a couple of frogs from a breeder and is hoping for a pair - what are the odds that they are getting frogs from different lines? Zilch. Unless they pay the extra bucks for shipping, they'll be getting siblings.

It's hard to keep genetic diversity within the hobby, and it's not because of a limited amount of w/c frogs. So, gentle breeders - what say you? Are you pulling from different lines or are you selling siblings?

time to duck n cover.....

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EntoCraig
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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby EntoCraig » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:17 pm

I know I'm jumping in here a bit....but

Guppygal: Do you know if there is any documentation on genetic issues with breeding siblings in the dart frog world? I know in mammals this causes many issues, but in reptiles issues seem to be minimal. Issues in fish are almost non existent as well as in birds.

How important is genetic diversity in the Frog World?

You make an excellent point, but I want to know if its speculations or based on some facts that I haven't had the privilege of reading up on yet!

Thanks! :)

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:26 pm

I don't think inter population breeding is nearly as bad as people make it out to be. The uneducated assume that breeding siblings is horrible and they get that from watching too much Jerry Springer. The azureus and sipiliwini populations are essentially isolated islands of habitat and the frogs are incapable of acquiring new genetic material due to this isolation. Has nature accounted for this ? Why haven't these islands of self-reproducing frogs petered out and died ? So sibling breeding may not be as horrid as many believe. Same with the actual Islands of pumilio...

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EntoCraig
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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby EntoCraig » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:35 pm

Philsuma, you are running along the lines of what I am wondering myself. Species of Poecilia have been isolated for centuries in small lakes through out Venezuela, yet the only genetic differences are color patters... As far as I know, mammals, humans in particular are the only species that quickly run into problems. Look at the species of Galapagos or Madagascar.

This is a great topic by the way! I see so many get hostile on these topics and its nice to discuss it scientifically without 'taking off the gloves' :lol:

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby chuckpowell » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:50 pm

I believe inbreeding is much more of a problem than people realize. Think how large the founding stock there is in the hobby is for any species. I'd be willing to bet that even with the most commonly imported species are not represented by more than a few hundred founding individuals that were/are actually kept alive and breed enough to become part of the captive breeding population. Some species/morphs are represented by a founding stock much small, especially the captive introduced morphs. I'd guess < 100 individuals comprise the founding stock for many species/morphs. Combine that with our inadequate husbandry and we almost all produce smaller, less colorful frogs, and fewer, less viable offspring. If our husbandry was better I think we could have substainable captive populations, but we don't and therefore we need a continued infux of wild caught animals. We really, as a hobbty, need to work on better husbandry practices and make those well know through the hobby. There are a few people I know of that breed/raise consistantly large, beautiful animals. We need to learn what their doing right and then improve on it till our animals look better than wc animals. Think about it - wc animals have to deal with all kinds of problems that aren't found in our terrariums - so why do our animals look worst than wc animals?

Best,

Chuck

Philsuma wrote:I don't think inter population breeding is nearly as bad as people make it out to be. The uneducated assume that breeding siblings is horrible and they get that from watching too much Jerry Springer. The azureus and sipiliwini populations are essentially isolated islands of habitat and the frogs are incapable of acquiring new genetic material due to this isolation. Has nature accounted for this ? Why haven't these islands of self-reproducing frogs petered out and died ? So sibling breeding may not be as horrid as many believe. Same with the actual Islands of pumilio...
Charles Powell

www.frogday.org

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Re: Breeding for specific traits - Thoughts ?

Postby guppygal » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:55 pm

I'm afraid I'll have to refer you back to the experts on this one, Craig. I honestly don't know if genetic diversity is as important as I've been led to believe. I haven't done the research, I'm afraid. I tend to go on what these learned folks tell me; otherwise, they'll beat me up ;)

kristi


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