Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
BluePumilio
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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby BluePumilio » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:41 pm

Everyone has different thoughts about lines, I'm sure they have have a little bit of useful information. Sort of like similar religions, gather information from all of then to come to your own conclusion. I personally have no knowledge about any of the Black Jeans lines except the EU imports. So I'd be a terrible person to ask. :)

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby RichFrye » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:54 pm

BluePumilio wrote:Everyone has different thoughts about lines, I'm sure they have have a little bit of useful information. Sort of like similar religions, gather information from all of then to come to your own conclusion. I personally have no knowledge about any of the Black Jeans lines except the EU imports. So I'd be a terrible person to ask. :)



Quick question Justin.
You personally, would you mix your new imports with my 'blackjeans'?

You are correct that it seems EVEYBODY has thoughts...not hard facts though. I'm not sure that 'everyone' has any useful info though. 'Everybody ' can't be right.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby BluePumilio » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:57 pm

Nope, I wouldn't mix mine.

I would figure out everything out to come to a conclusion, though.

RichFrye wrote:
BluePumilio wrote:Everyone has different thoughts about lines, I'm sure they have have a little bit of useful information. Sort of like similar religions, gather information from all of then to come to your own conclusion. I personally have no knowledge about any of the Black Jeans lines except the EU imports. So I'd be a terrible person to ask. :)



Quick question Justin.
You personally, would you mix your new imports with my 'blackjeans'?

You are correct that it seems EVEYBODY has thoughts...not hard facts though. I'm not sure that 'everyone' has any useful info though. 'Everybody ' can't be right.

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RichFrye
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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby RichFrye » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:04 pm

Right, you'd not mix because of info you know and info you trust. Or even possibly info you may be lacking.
It's great to have hard facts and not just throw up our arms and say "who cares!".

BluePumilio wrote:Nope, I wouldn't mix mine.

I would figure out everything out to come to a conclusion, though.

RichFrye wrote:
BluePumilio wrote:Everyone has different thoughts about lines, I'm sure they have have a little bit of useful information. Sort of like similar religions, gather information from all of then to come to your own conclusion. I personally have no knowledge about any of the Black Jeans lines except the EU imports. So I'd be a terrible person to ask. :)



Quick question Justin.
You personally, would you mix your new imports with my 'blackjeans'?

You are correct that it seems EVEYBODY has thoughts...not hard facts though. I'm not sure that 'everyone' has any useful info though. 'Everybody ' can't be right.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby BluePumilio » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:08 pm

I think it goes more to the thought, does it matter? I see and agree with both sides.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby RichFrye » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:24 pm

The fact that you'd not mix our lines and the reasoning behind your decision tells me that it does matter, to you and I.
The more reliable info one has, the more it matters as to how to breed.
Those who run on less info have a much more laissez faire "who cares" attitude. Which is hurting the hobby.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby Philsuma » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:54 pm

I must admit that I was disappointed to read the advice ' Who cares, the're your glass box animals, do whatever you want"...

Especially coming from someone who clearly crosses into the business end of the hobby.

Like Craig said....can we at least STRIVE to 'do better' ?? That does mean exposure to a BIT of argument and heated discussion but man, oh man, that's just gotta be preferable to the other school of thought:

1. nice Froggy
2. Sweet viv
3. Sorry about your loss

P.S...does everyone 'get' that cute little saying ? I'm assuming most people do, but LMK if you don't...

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby Philsuma » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:29 pm

Is VenomRoo truly a blockhead?

Wasn't he told to come over here and post and discuss this issue with Rich HERE on DD?

I see where everyone is all apologetic and sorry and scared now...mods must have smacked a few hands with the DB ruler.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby DaysAndDarts » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:27 pm

Blockhead may be an understatement if you look at some of his 'facts' on other topics such as what Bastis can breed together.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby Philsuma » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:23 pm

"Inbreeding...Outbreeding"...these are scientific terms that 90% of this Hobby....hobby...will never grasp let alone use. And the breeding and transfer of progeny that the 15% or so of the hobby that DOES make it to the stage where they have healthy F1's to give to other people...well....that's just what it is. A Small amount. Inbreeding and outbreeding may be more applicable to zoological institutions and with more 'common' animals.

This is the same reason Frogtracks and TWI had almost ZERO traction with the hobby - most people couldn't/wouldn't understand the genetic science and here's the big one....most Americans, especially with regards to a luxury hobby such as this, are disinclined to participate in any sort of record taking and keeping. Probably a lot similar to firearm philosophy- "Don't tell me or ask me anythin' about mah Ghuns" !

Here's my personal take on Panamanian imports:

1. They come in as a 'snapshot'...like a Polaroid picture. The exact individual shipments contain animals that when separated by phenotype, are the best possible accounting of wherever they were sampled /collected.

2. In the absence of another animal from that EXACT same import shipment - this is why we are so big on using Year and often month and year...then I would attempt to find another animal that looked identical from another year, but only after exhausting the above.

3. In no way would I just carte blanche, throw together - any given Christobal, any given Blue/Aguacate/Cauchero.

Just my .02

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby Sherman » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:12 pm

Philsuma wrote:"Inbreeding...Outbreeding"...these are scientific terms that 90% of this Hobby....hobby...will never grasp let alone use. And the breeding and transfer of progeny that the 15% or so of the hobby that DOES make it to the stage where they have healthy F1's to give to other people...well....that's just what it is. A Small amount. Inbreeding and outbreeding may be more applicable to zoological institutions and with more 'common' animals.

This is the same reason Frogtracks and TWI had almost ZERO traction with the hobby - most people couldn't/wouldn't understand the genetic science and here's the big one....most Americans, especially with regards to a luxury hobby such as this, are disinclined to participate in any sort of record taking and keeping. Probably a lot similar to firearm philosophy- "Don't tell me or ask me anythin' about mah Ghuns" !


Phil,

You are usually more of a half full kind of guy. You are in a good position to effect some change in these matters.
Would it be safe to say that 10% of the people supply 90% of the animals to the hobby, CB & WC?
If so, the target audience just got a lot smaller.
Any thoughts on a standardized information form that could be voluntarily distributed with animals.

Chris

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby DaysAndDarts » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:17 pm

This entire ordeal is just some one wanting to make do with what they have instead of acquiring all of one line. To me if there are multiple seperate lines and have been for some time then they should be kept that way. I'm not familiar with the nhan line or when the founding stock arrived in the USA , however I am familiar with Rich's line and know his unique circumstances. I have a pair of Rich's and certainly would not mix with any other similar frogs.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby Philsuma » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:20 pm

Chris,

Ain't gonna happen.

TWI

Studbooks

Zoo software

the Hobby will not support it. Let it go, brother...it just won't happen.

Focus on what we CAN achieve. Realistic goals and betterment. GPS. True Farm raised. Supporting and giving the RIGHT people our money.

Sorry to be Debbie Downer here, but registering isn't going to happen UNLESS it starts with the export country. Mark P didn't do it with the Sylvaticas but again, it wasn't really HIS barbecue.

It's going to take someone reputable going down there...boots on the ground. Photos. Time and Date Stamps. GPS. Video.Will Panama ever allow any of that? I doubt it. Costa Rica and Brian K ? NOW there we have a chance. Justin has just broke new ground with HIS O. pumilio import and we are oh so hopeful there - that it will succeed and blossom.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby Sherman » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:39 pm

My intentions are not to register everyone's existing frogs. What I am suggesting is giving out pertinent information, in a written form, for any animal that is produced going forward, grassroots style, bottom up. A standardized form would be helpful in making this information more accessible to everyone. This is something I am going to start to do with my limited offerings. I hope that it will get the recipient to think a little harder about what is going on. Realistically it will get thrown out more often than not, but those intending to manage these animals will certainly appreciate the extra effort. Again, I think we only need to reach a small percentage to be effective.

As for true, verifiable farmed frogs, Hell Yeah, all for them.
But... I'd rather get our practices up to snuff before bringing anything else in.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby Philsuma » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:44 pm

Moving forward with 'what we already have" ?

That's like trying to take the Chocolate Milkshake and find out where the Milk came from...then where the Chocolate came from and trying to eyeball it and separate it. I'm just doubting that we can do much of anything with what is already here.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby Sherman » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:02 pm

Debbie, <-(Don't be mad, you started it. :) )

If I am spending $100, $200,... $500, $600, on a single frog. I want to know if it is chocolate milk or not. Some people probably kept their milk and chocolate separate. It is still a trust thing, but it is harder to skirt a lie in writing.
I have to believe that there are people that know what they have in their collections, even if it is only import, year and "locality".
There is a lot of talk about asking questions about the frogs you are going to buy. These are just the answers to the questions that people should be asking anyway. Why not hand this information out, in writing, with your offspring? It is better than verbally telling someone and hoping that they remember correctly. Ink on paper does not create a false memory.
What would it hurt? It just might catch on.

Sincerely,
Heather Hopeful.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby Sherman » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:23 pm

Phil,

Furthermore, I accept that managing the majority of the animals in our care right now may be an academic endeavor. We are not prepared to manage GPS site specific animals yet. We have no effective mechanisms in place to do so.
Becoming accustomed to giving out and expecting to receive this type of information is just a baby step in the right direction. This is merely an extension of the standardized classified format.

Chris.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby BluePumilio » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:39 pm

I guess if the purpose is to keep frogs in glass cages, how much information is really needed? This is not a conservation effort and never will be. I personally like information, but understand that in reality, it doesn't matter too much.

Sherman wrote:Phil,

Furthermore, I accept that managing the majority of the animals in our care right now may be an academic endeavor. We are not prepared to manage GPS site specific animals yet. We have no effective mechanisms in place to do so.
Becoming accustomed to giving out and expecting to receive this type of information is just a baby step in the right direction. This is merely an extension of the standardized classified format.

Chris.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby Sherman » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:46 pm

BluePumilio wrote:I guess if the purpose is to keep frogs in glass cages, how much information is really needed? This is not a conservation effort and never will be. I personally like information, but understand that in reality, it doesn't matter too much.


Eventually when importation stops, either due to restrictive laws or loss of wild populations, all we will have left are captive animals. If these animals are not managed to keep healthy populations, we (realistically our grandchildren) will lose the opportunity to enjoy these frogs in little glass boxes.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio import and non site specific

Postby BluePumilio » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:10 pm

I know quite a few fish that started from 2-3 fish, on of then has been in the hobby since the 1940's.


Sherman wrote:
BluePumilio wrote:I guess if the purpose is to keep frogs in glass cages, how much information is really needed? This is not a conservation effort and never will be. I personally like information, but understand that in reality, it doesn't matter too much.


Eventually when importation stops, either due to restrictive laws or loss of wild populations, all we will have left are captive animals. If these animals are not managed to keep healthy populations, we (realistically our grandchildren) will lose the opportunity to enjoy these frogs in little glass boxes.


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