O. pumilio Bastimentos - Red ?

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
Stu&Shaz
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O. pumilio Bastimentos - Red ?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:30 am

We're are along way of getting these frogs, but they are on our list of will-haves one day.I know pums are not touted as beginners frogs, that said, room logistics means that I will be setting their tank up soon, so any information that you guys can give us will be of great help.

The tank is 50x50sq on the base 60 cm high(say 2' high,about 20x20"base),our ideas are to have a great depth of leaf litter on the floor and seed this heavily,with springs and woodlice (isos?),the 3 sides will be back grounded in our usual way, cork, foam planters for the large leaved plants,and many bits of oak for a climbing frame,heavily planted with broms mainly neos,and lots of vines for which we will use our native lonicera. So a basic amount of dense planted, side maxing, climbing frame and hiding places bare floor maxing available foodstuffs esp for the youngsters.

Questions that spring to mind are what size vases should the broms have that are best suited to tadpole disposition,any tips on substrates,ie under the leaves ? Ideal temperatures ?

We try our best to get the viv design internals to best suit the inhabitants,for me this viv will be an even bigger challenge than normal as the frogs whole breeding cycle will take place in it,so its crucial we get this right from the off. We are hoping this will house a trio i.e 2 females,any disagreements with that ?

As you can also tell from the title I am also unsure slightly of the exact morph,and its title,it is a dark orange frog with cream underneath and black spots,as we are in England,nomenclature does vary a bit,i have red that this particular frog (morph) does not breed true to colour and is one of the few cases where different coloured frogs can be mixed and still preserve morph integrity...is this correct? We are using vivs of the ent design with a false floor and a drain ans will build up the front beside the ditch to accomodate the depth of substrate that i feel we need.

The back top piece of the viv will utilise optiwhite glass so we can use a uvb bulb and be sure the little guys can get what they need from this(optiwhite lets uvb through) this will be supplemented by our led lighting with which we seem to be having good results.

Before I go. do pums utilise film canisters for tad deposition and if so, are white or black colours preferred ?

All replies gratefully received, thanks in advance.

Stu

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Re: Bastimentos(town)...Red?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:46 am

That size enclosure sounds a little small for pumilio....

A trio of 1 male and 2 females is a good ratio. That's what I use. Again...I'd go with a larger tank. 150% of what you have listed, at least. Bigger is better and it's hard to "go backwards" once done is done, if you get my meaning.

3 side backgrounds are great. So many people try for only the single background or even no background ! It doens't "hurt" the frogs to not have "no background", but it absolutely does HELP them to have it. They "display and breed better - feel more secure, IMO.

There are very few true "Red" dart frogs in the hobby / wild. Most are some degree of Orange, although at certain times and angles, and photos, they can look a bit red. Most Bastimentos (Island) morph pumilio are indeed Orange with white / cream coloured undersides and feet (socking). Again, there are some locale variation - Salt Creek, Cemetery ect, that may produce a colour variation - even one that you feel is "more" Red.

NatuRose and several other colour enhancing micro powdered supplements can def help to achieve a deeper Orange or possibly, Reddish colour.

Inital Substrate for me is ABG over top of some "small hills" of Leca or Hydroton. You may want to do a search for "Clay background as well".

Temps for my pums are 65-68F at night to 78-82F during day. Fans and slight temp fluctuations are good here, as well.

Broms - use medium size "hobby" broms - usually of the "Neo" variety.

Film cans - I use them. Black seem to be preferred. pums will use broms before using films cans but like everything in the hobby...it's better to give them multiple choices.

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Re: Bastimentos(town)...Red?

Postby Tony » Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:01 pm

Phil,

That size is slightly larger than the 18x18x24 (33 gallon) Exo/ZooMed that you recommend for trios in another thread, have you changed your mind and gone bigger since posting that?

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Re: Bastimentos(town)...Red?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:25 pm

You made me get the tape measure out....lol

I have a serious mental block on inches measurements....that's why I go by gallons all the time. Just easier for me to visualize. Did I think he meant cm ?

I DO keep my trios of 1.2 pumilio in those 33 gallon size Exos and Zoomeds and they seem to be breeding and getting along well provided they are heavily planted and hardscaped correctly. A couple of my tanks only have the single background but the few that I made into a "shadow box" style, I really like better.

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Re: Bastimentos(town)...Red?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:42 pm

Ha funny as *** I too had to get the tape measure out to give you the correct dimensions as we now work in the dreaded metric here. For a minute Phil I was reeling,thinking surely that's big enough,lmao, All our vivs will have 3 sides covered Phil it seems a waste of climbing frame to not give them that to me,coupled with the ability to duck for cover ,means that hopefully they will be more confident.Wonderful advice though kiddo, we live on clay that I suspect is high in Ca as we are below a CaCO3 escarpment,and have looked in some detail at the clay threads although have not quite got this sorted out yet,but appreciate the importance of what you are saying !! Phil what about the variety in colour forms of this morph is that true? Temps were what i hoped for with the position of this tank in our room.

Lastly I massively thank you, mainly for confirming what I had hoped for,and also for adding some details that we were unaware of.

very grateful,

Stu

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Re: Bastimentos(town)...Red?

Postby Tony » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:50 pm

There are three Bastimentos populations represented in the hobby. The Cemetery population, commonly referred to as Bastimentos or Basti, are the polymorphic form you are describing and can be freely mixed. There is also Red Frog Beach, which appear similar to red Cemetery frogs but should not be mixed, and Salt Creek which is very different in appearance.

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Re: Bastimentos(town)...Red?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:54 pm

Thanks for the kind words Stu,

It's my pleasure to be of any help.

The other construction or hardscape issue that I always like to address with a semi arboreal species of Dart Frog and especially the pumilio species, is the "layered canopy".

The Layered canopy goes hand in hand with the 3 sided shadow boxed background and literally provides various leafed plantings, bromeliads and wood features to make a series of layers - usually 2-3 depending on how high / tall your Viv is.

The layered plantings and brom leaves touch and overlap and combinded with the wood features, make for a highway of sorts, that the pumilio can walk about on. Heavy plantings are always a good idea. I never met a Viv that was "too heavily planted or overgrown".

You often see pictures of planted vivs with only 2-3 broms - sometimes even less ! I use 2-3 medium sized Broms per frog, more if there's any room at all left. Overgown ? Too many....nah...that's what shears are for.

The "pumilio highway"...hehe.....the plants and leaves all touch in 2-3 levels, all around the back and sides of the viv and some large wood feature(s) in the center.

That's how I do.

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Re: Bastimentos(town)...Red?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:01 pm

Like Tony said, the polymorphic "Main" Bastimentos populations contains some Oranges, Red-ish, White or Cream (gold dust?), Yellow-ish and even Green colours and they all interbreed and can be "mixed" in our hobby.

If someone really wants a "mixed frog" tank...then Basti's are it ! I just transfered a pair of my Orange Bastis to a buddy and they "threw" some gold dust colours and now they have produced 2 froglets that are more on the yellowish side.

Quite variable and interesting. Again, I really don't think you are going to find a true "Red" Basti. Deep Orange....Red "ish" maybe. I just haven't seen many at all available from the normal Basti imports - even photos.

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Re: Bastimentos(town)...Red?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:25 pm

Tony wrote:There are three Bastimentos populations represented in the hobby. The Cemetery population, commonly referred to as Bastimentos or Basti, are the polymorphic form you are describing and can be freely mixed. There is also Red Frog Beach, which appear similar to red Cemetery frogs but should not be mixed, and Salt Creek which is very different in appearance.

Thanks also Tony,i have been told of these 3 distinct populations nice to have another take on it ,mate how do i distinguish betwixt the red frog beach and the cemetary morph(am sure now that its these we are after) my only real reference is the tropical experiance morph guide,and here all the red frog beach look erm red. It is difficult here tracing the heretage of frogs,especially if they come from a private breeder :cry: :(
Stu

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Re: Bastimentos(town)...Red?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:30 pm

Pics and visual I.D is virtually impossible.

Here's where it gets tricky and dicey.....

You MUST rely firmly, 100% on the persons word on where they frogs came from. It will be up to you to trust them or collect references on them. If they have "paperwork"....ask to see it and judge for yourself.

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Re: Bastimentos(town)...Red?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:55 pm

Philsuma wrote:Pics and visual I.D is virtually impossible.

Here's where it gets tricky and dicey.....

You MUST rely firmly, 100% on the persons word on where they frogs came from. It will be up to you to trust them or collect references on them. If they have "paperwork"....ask to see it and judge for yourself.


Ha, so much to learn ! Phil those pics on tropical experiance 12 I think,under bastimentos can all be bred together ? Is that correct ? They are very diverse ! I didn't quite realise HOW much variation there is,enthralling stuff ! Also very cool to have the same pair throwing out different colours!

Stu

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Re: Bastimentos(town)...Red?

Postby Tony » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:13 pm

Yes, the block of 12 pics under the heading "Bastimentos" are the Cemetary population, they all interbreed naturally.

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Re: Bastimentos(town)...Red?

Postby Philsuma » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:23 pm

I think Rich wrote this...

Bastimentos

This morph was the first well established pumilio hobby import here in the U.S.(1990's). There are at least three major locales for this frog which should not be mixed.

The Polymorphic 'Cemetery' locale can be mixed, no matter what color phase. But the "Red frog beach" locale should not be mixed with 'Cemetery' locales, and the Salt creek locale should also not be mixed with any other basti locale (Tranquilo Bay).

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Re: O. pumilio Bastimentos - Red ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:55 pm

...I've also written that about 80% of the Cemetary locale pums are orange with about 15% real actual red and the rest either 'goldust' , 'blue', 'white' , 'green' ect.
So, if you want to breed as they do in nature (the goal) we should not be breeding red to red Cemetary. We should be breeding orange to red, orange to goldust, orange to white, orange to green...

Stu,
It's my suggestion that waiting for real locale info is well worth it. There are pums in the EU with locale data. Quite a few actually.



Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Bastimentos(town)...Red?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:53 pm

Tony wrote:Yes, the block of 12 pics under the heading "Bastimentos" are the Cemetary population, they all interbreed naturally.

Thankyou Tony,sorry if it felt like i was repeating myself great to have your confirmation of that! That is a bewildering variety in one morph,its quite alot to get ones head around not only all the dart morphs,but the different "common names they have too! on different countries
very greatful
Stu

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Re: O. pumilio Bastimentos - Red ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:05 pm

Stu,

The morphology issue is another reason why we consider pumilio to be more of an "intermediate" species.

The best advice I can give you Stu, in your fledgling moment of "new hobbyist" indecision, is to try and locate one of the most respected UK Froggers that is within a reasonable distance to you. Phone them and ask them for pointers and references as to what frogs you are interested in obtaining and MOST importantly - WHO you should buy from.

Sometimes I field a ton of questions from new potential froggers and I end up telling them " You are located where ? ...ok...I know a couple really respected froggers that are in the same area as you. What I would do, is email, PM, phone them and ask them who is local to you and what species of frogs do they have that you can 100% recommend".

I would patronize a really good local hobbyist 1000 times sooner than I would attempt to email someone and deal with shipping from 2-3 time zones ect.

Good, Local Hobbyists are the true strength of this Hobby IMO.

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Re: O. pumilio Bastimentos - Red ?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:04 pm

Philsuma wrote:Stu,

The morphology issue is another reason why we consider pumilio to be more of an "intermediate" species.

The best advice I can give you Stu, in your fledgling moment of "new hobbyist" indecision, is to try and locate one of the most respected UK Froggers that is within a reasonable distance to you. Phone them and ask them for pointers and references as to what frogs you are interested in obtaining and MOST importantly - WHO you should buy from.

Sometimes I field a ton of questions from new potential froggers and I end up telling them " You are located where ? ...ok...I know a couple really respected froggers that are in the same area as you. What I would do, is email, PM, phone them and ask them who is local to you and what species of frogs do they have that you can 100% recommend".

I would patronize a really good local hobbyist 1000 times sooner than I would attempt to email someone and deal with shipping from 2-3 time zones ect.

Good, Local Hobbyists are the true strength of this Hobby IMO.

Great sound advice mate,have put feelers out to see frog rooms only got 2(one from the other end of the country) replies back although as time goes by and i guess guys see what we are up to more are slowly comming foward,we English are quite reserved i suppose.That said we already have our leucs from one of 3 breeders up north whom i trust and have both encouraged and supported us,and have more frogs comming from them when available in the summer,one of these is the humble azzie: vivs are built,we can have tomorrow but we will wait as you say for the right breeder to have them available.My constant source of inspiation has been Marc at dartfrog,our only specialist dartfrog shop in the UK,he has been very patient and has also let us watch his frogs for hours.Which has been very important when on such a slow journey as ours, has been, to actually go and see some frogs( i have seen guys come into this and go out before we even had our first tank planted).He is also the only supply for some frogs like my camos for example from places like understory,without us going out of the country.Its a small hobby here at the moment but growing i think ,quite funny really mate I have had more requests for guys to come and see us(say by a factor of 10) and our set up than we have had offers to go and see,and we haven't really started yet just knocked up a few tanks and some aliracks,i don't think anyone else had made these racks before here (as opposed to buy them),its all so in its infancy.We are making more contacts all the time,mainly its trying to find the frogs,being bred,that is so difficult especially locally
As above great sound advice
Stu

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Re: O. pumilio Bastimentos - Red ?

Postby Stu&Shaz » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:44 pm

RichFrye wrote:...I've also written that about 80% of the Cemetary locale pums are orange with about 15% real actual red and the rest either 'goldust' , 'blue', 'white' , 'green' ect.
So, if you want to breed as they do in nature (the goal) we should not be breeding red to red Cemetary. We should be breeding orange to red, orange to goldust, orange to white, orange to green...

Stu,
It's my suggestion that waiting for real locale info is well worth it. There are pums in the EU with locale data. Quite a few actually.



Rich

Rich sorry for the slow reply, huge apology,I read your post and must have somehow scuppered my reply as I remember,typing about: yes that is the goal...to breed as they do in nature.I was just banging all the infomation into my head that you all have chucked at me and realised it was not there,seemed rude to not have accknowledged your advice,the above words from you have been duly noted ,and there is no rush for the actual frogs,just need to sort their tank now, so plenty of time to find what we are looking for from hopefully the right source.

THANK YOU
Stu

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Re: O. pumilio Bastimentos - Red ?

Postby Lady Bullseye » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:12 pm

just replying so I can find this again :)
Lisa
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