Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
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Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby frogface » Fri May 27, 2011 9:43 pm

My pair of El Dorados now have 4 froglets. All are in the same 20g high vert tank.

I've read through a few posts regarding raising pum froglets in tank. Seems like the general advice on the threads I read was to keep the froglets in the parents tank for approx 5 months. My question is, when does the tank become too crowded? I have the 2 parents, 1 froglet about 3 months, 1 froglet a couple weeks, and 2 froglets that came out today.

Oh, and, YAY ALL THESE BEAUTIFUL FROGLETS!! :mrgreen:
Do you know where your frogs have been?

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Re: Pumilio froglets

Postby Philsuma » Fri May 27, 2011 9:49 pm

2-3 of my Breeder pumilio vivs have just now crossed the line to becoming "critical"

My criteria for rolling up my sleeves and start going crazy with the catch tube ?

1. The offspring have gone beyond juvenile stage and are into sub-adult and I'm almost starting to get confused as to which ones are the adults.

2. There is definite tussling and wrasslin' going on - sexual maturity.

Time to pull some pums....

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby ChrisK » Sat May 28, 2011 4:04 am

Or if you keep them in a smaller type tank like that and you can see they're not getting enough food before the adults obliterate it all

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:56 pm

Yeah. I feed my breeding group pum vivs everyday or every other. Def have to account for adults chowing down.

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:48 pm

Here's my question that digs at me often.
All things equal, same micro-fauna, same sized viv, same, same ...is there a pheromone or something equivalent that the parents produce to help the froglets in-viv?
Because I can name a number of negative possibilities to leaving froglets in-viv (all things equal) but no up side.
This is a serious question and not meant to be inflammatory in any way. How do we quantify leaving them in ? I can quantify pulling them.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:56 pm

just a theory here Rich...

since Oophaga pumilio are obligate egg-feeders and express a great deal of parental activity: transporting, feeding, raising, then it would seem logical that may indeed carry over after metamorphosis - well into the froglet stage of development.

Just as the pumilio tadpole fully recognizes the size, shape and locomotion of the parent female during feeding, maybe it carries over to the froglet. The froglet feels safe to feed and grow when there are other adult pumilio around and in close proximity to it.

Take the froglet out of the parental vivarium and place it all by itself or even with other similar siblings and notice how much more it hides. It may even feed less and exhibit more stress when there are no adults around.

I think so.

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby cbreon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:14 pm

All I can say is what I have seen and suspect. My experience supports what Phil is saying to a degree. Anything pulled before 1-2 months doesn't seem to do as well as froglets that are left with their parents a little bit.

Rich, how long do you wait to pull froglets?

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:26 pm

cbreon wrote:All I can say is what I have seen and suspect. My experience supports what Phil is saying to a degree. Anything pulled before 1-2 months doesn't seem to do as well as froglets that are left with their parents a little bit.

Rich, how long do you wait to pull froglets?


I don't wait at all Craig. I sometimes pull a can with a tad which has popped fronts and let it morph in the grow out viv. I don't rush it or stress it, but if I find a froglet or almost froglet I pull them.
Reports have shown zero parental need or comfort given. Just as males don't seem to 'like' females, and vise- versa...these are not communal animals and parental care/needs end at fronts popped. Comfort comes in the form of food and spots to feel secure (lots of leaf litter) Until other-wise proven.

I have a feeling that parent viv and grow-out vivs are not always "all things equal".
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby sidney ferrell » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:37 pm

must be a storm coming or lighting strike on me but I agree with Frye. As soon as I see froglets making their way to the litter at minimum they're ready to be transferred. I have noticed twice as fast growth rate and better feeding.

I just can't find a positive in leaving froglets in viv to get stomped on and outcompeted for springs and ffs by much larger parents. I've found dead froglets in parents vivs and zero so far since deciding to pull asap. Don't know why that's been the case for me but I guess its worth sticking to it as its working.

A downside might be that froglets are getting springs all to themselves therefore possibly overeating...

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby cbreon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:43 pm

Interesting to note your successes. Truth be told, many of my bad experiences happened years ago before I was more focused on providing adequate microfauna, better quality vitamins, and better soils and leaf litter. Like most my viv design and grow out design has come a long way since the early 2000's. Last year I was waiting until 3-4 months, I have now been pulling at 1-2 months and haven't seen any difference, but I am usually hesitant to make drastic changes with anything, frogs being no different.

One advantage to pulling ealrier seems that I can ensure that the froglets are getting less competition for food and can keep a closer eye on them in smaller grow-outs. I can also avoid disturbing adults that are trying to care for their next batch of eggs or tads.

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:47 pm

Also, male pums know another male pum WAY, WAY before we can sex them (WAY before calling...) .
This added male is not a buddy...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby cbreon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:02 pm

Yeah Rich, I have suspected the same thing...

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby Armson » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:37 pm

What about the hype of clay substrates? If the Froglets are being pulled early wouldn't it be better to have a calcium rich substrate in the grow out tank as opposed to the breeding viv?

and on that note.... Is anyone having a better success rate with clay based substrates?

-Byron

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:59 pm

^^^ Stay on topic here please. Bryon....hit up one of the clay threads existing please.

Adults stepping on and standing on froglets of all sizes ? Yep...very common occurrence, especially at feeding time for dominance and pecking order. Every time I've seen it, the froglet was back to feeding (albeit in another part of the viv) within moments of getting stepped or stood on. No worse for wear.

The other reason for 'no quick froglet transfer" was hearing about all the Histo and Sylvie people saying they were almost positive that there was actual mortality increase due to separating froglets too soon. So I always thought...hmmm..the histo people swear by it- leaving them in the viv longer and just thought there was enough possibilities as I mentioned above.

Just some thoughts and as always...no such thing as gospel on this or many other behavioural issues.

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby JL-Exotics » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:22 pm

I find this topic very interesting...

I personally have much better results with pumilio when I leave the offspring in the parent tank until they are near adult in size. BUT, that was not the case when I had my breeding pairs in anything smaller then about 25 gallon tanks. I have also had uber aggressive pums that would start stomping any offspring just weeks after metamorphosis.

My success ratio plummets (or at least used to) when I try and pull the offspring and I'm sure the quality of the rearing tanks is a factor in that - but I am still not able to figure out what makes a good rearing tank and what doesn't. In many cases they would thrive for 3 or 5 months and then deteriorate.

Since most of us consider our pum babies as precious cargo - Rearing experiments it's not something I've been very open to toying with.

For those having good success raising pumilio to sexable ADULT size - can you share some grow-out tank specs and feeding details? Pictures are always helpful, but so are the details about substrate, ventilation, food supply, feeding frequency etc. etc.

Thanks for any shared insight!
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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby RichFrye » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:35 pm

I can tell you one thing. People tend to put new pums in new-ish vivs.
Calcium basically does not go away. If you have been dusting year after year after year , there's lots of calcium in that viv. Calcium is essential for young pums.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:41 pm

JL-Exotics wrote:I find this topic very interesting...

I personally have much better results with pumilio when I leave the offspring in the parent tank until they are near adult in size. BUT, that was not the case when I had my breeding pairs in anything smaller then about 25 gallon tanks. I have also had uber aggressive pums that would start stomping any offspring just weeks after metamorphosis.



Indeed...I think we should....should.....all agree that 10-15 'gallon'-ish size enclosures are just wrong for O.pumilio.

*edit* - I'm not talking temp tanks or grow-outs.....breeder vivs / permanent vivs of 10-15 gallon size for a pair of breeding adults is just wrong IMO.

I personally would love to see 20-30 "gallon" sizes be the rule-of-thumb minimum...and all things being equal- bigger is better.

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby cbreon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:30 pm

JL-Exotics wrote:I find this topic very interesting...

I personally have much better results with pumilio when I leave the offspring in the parent tank until they are near adult in size. BUT, that was not the case when I had my breeding pairs in anything smaller then about 25 gallon tanks. I have also had uber aggressive pums that would start stomping any offspring just weeks after metamorphosis.

My success ratio plummets (or at least used to) when I try and pull the offspring and I'm sure the quality of the rearing tanks is a factor in that - but I am still not able to figure out what makes a good rearing tank and what doesn't. In many cases they would thrive for 3 or 5 months and then deteriorate.

Since most of us consider our pum babies as precious cargo - Rearing experiments it's not something I've been very open to toying with.

For those having good success raising pumilio to sexable ADULT size - can you share some grow-out tank specs and feeding details? Pictures are always helpful, but so are the details about substrate, ventilation, food supply, feeding frequency etc. etc.

Thanks for any shared insight!


My grow outs are 10-20 gallon aquariums. Some with vert kits some not. The 20's are false bottom, the 10's have hydroton bottoms. My substrate, from bottom up is flase bottom/hydroton, sphagnum, soil, leaf litter. I keep them fairly well planted and like to include a small piece of driftwood or two, frogs seem to like it as shelter.

The soil layer is usually comprised of a shoebox, purple iso culture and a shoebox, springtail culture. My bug cultures use the same soil my tanks do: cocos fiber, peat, fir bark, cocos husk, calcium enriched sand, turface (clay), activated charcoal, jungle soil mix, and ground sphagnum. Then I top with live oak or sand oak leaves, my two favorite. I use one strip light over these tanks so they are somewhat dimly lit, I have found the froglets seem to come out more when there is less light.

For the first couple weeks in the parent tank I heavily feed springs and some isos every two or three days, while I feed ff's, this helps some of the spings get into the substrate while the adults eat the flies. When I move to them to the grow outs I feed a couple dusted flies every day or two to encourage the froglets to take vitamins asap. Obviously, the sooner the froglets eat vitamins, the better their chance of surviving and thriving. The isos and springs are already established in the grow out substrate. I monitor the leaf litter and substrate occasionally to ensure that a good microfauna level exists.

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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby JL-Exotics » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:50 pm

^^ Just curious, what is the purpose of the sphagnum layer between the hydroton and the soil? Just an alternative to window screen?
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Re: Pumilio offspring - when to pull / seperate ?

Postby cbreon » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:56 pm

exactly, helps keep the substrate out of the water in the false bottom, also helps maintain good humidity...


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