What's with all the Oophaga sylvatica suddenly?

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
edwardsatc
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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby edwardsatc » Thu May 31, 2012 8:54 pm

thedude wrote:If they are being offered from a research project, they will have papers with them.


This should include the project IACUC protocol as IACUC requires protocol to explicitly state whether animals will be released to the public or "adopted" as a disposition. If it's not in the protocol, they were not legally released from the institution.

Many universities do not allow experimental animals to be released to the public at all. At my institution, I cannot release vertebrates from my lab to the public.

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby JJuchems » Thu May 31, 2012 8:58 pm

edwardsatc wrote:
thedude wrote:If they are being offered from a research project, they will have papers with them.


This should include the project IACUC protocol as IACUC requires protocol to explicitly state whether animals will be released to the public or "adopted" as a disposition. If it's not in the protocol, they were not legally released from the institution.

Many universities do not allow experimental animals to be released to the public at all. At my institution, I cannot release vertebrates from my lab to the public.


And yet it happens...
Later and Happy Frogging,
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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby thedude » Thu May 31, 2012 9:06 pm

JJuchems wrote:
thedude wrote:

thedude wrote:Hey Jim, I know it's tough not buying your most wanted frogs, but both Ecuador and Colombia are open now for these amazing frogs, Just give it time man :D


I was hoping items would be out now, however I have not see anything yet. I thought they both opened up in January. Am I mistaken?


Open as in 2 companies are working there and importing/exporting through Understory. The countries themselves are not open in any other way. If they are papers from Germany, I wouldn't trust them. They make fake CITES permits for smuggled frogs sometimes.
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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby JJuchems » Thu May 31, 2012 9:12 pm

thedude wrote:
Open as in 2 companies are working there and importing/exporting through Understory. The countries themselves are not open in any other way. If they are papers from Germany, I wouldn't trust them. They make fake CITES permits for smuggled frogs sometimes.


Fake CITES is nothing new, however I had some information about Colombia and the possibility of Ecuador opening up in 2012. I figured a no for Ecuador, but Colombia...
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Re: Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby ChrisK » Thu May 31, 2012 9:18 pm

Philsuma wrote:yeah considering they are all sub-adults to adults.

I'm no mind reader, but it sounds like Rich was being sarcastic that probably nobody will stick with them long enough. These frogs don't produce anywhere near what most non obligates do, and some don't even start till they're a couple of years old......

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What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby SnakePaparazzi » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:24 am

ChrisK wrote:
Philsuma wrote:yeah considering they are all sub-adults to adults.

I'm no mind reader, but it sounds like Rich was being sarcastic that probably nobody will stick with them long enough. These frogs don't produce anywhere near what most non obligates do, and some don't even start till they're a couple of years old......



Or now that there are adults that are possibly "papered" and here "legally" (or in Europe for that matter), the doorway for smuggled froglets being sold as captive bred from either here or Europe might be opening...

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:59 am

SnakePaparazzi wrote:
ChrisK wrote:
Philsuma wrote:yeah considering they are all sub-adults to adults.

I'm no mind reader, but it sounds like Rich was being sarcastic that probably nobody will stick with them long enough. These frogs don't produce anywhere near what most non obligates do, and some don't even start till they're a couple of years old......



Or now that there are adults that are possibly "papered" and here "legally" (or in Europe for that matter), the doorway for smuggled froglets being sold as captive bred from either here or Europe might be opening...



No,
adults in most in situ populations out-number young (being half or less than adult size) by a rate of about 30-1. Much more at times. Sometimes less.
This is why most all frogs coming from the wild are adults.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby SnakePaparazzi » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:23 am

RichFrye wrote:No,
adults in most in situ populations out-number young (being half or less than adult size) by a rate of about 30-1. Much more at times. Sometimes less.
This is why most all frogs coming from the wild are adults.


Thanks for the clarification :)
-Christian

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:33 am

SnakePaparazzi wrote:
RichFrye wrote:No,
adults in most in situ populations out-number young (being half or less than adult size) by a rate of about 30-1. Much more at times. Sometimes less.
This is why most all frogs coming from the wild are adults.


Thanks for the clarification :)
-Christian


No problem.
My sarcastic point was that with all the new anythings, I still await for new site obligate lines to become at least somewhat established. That interests me.
Show me something F3 from anything 'solid' and a decent locale and I love the project and commitment.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby ChrisK » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:39 am

RichFrye wrote:Show me something F3 from anything 'solid' and a decent locale and I love the project and commitment.

Hey, I'm workin on it! :P

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby thedude » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:01 am

RichFrye wrote:No problem.
My sarcastic point was that with all the new anythings, I still await for new site obligate lines to become at least somewhat established. That interests me.
Show me something F3 from anything 'solid' and a decent locale and I love the project and commitment.


Considering there are only a handful of real site specific large obligates (Paru being the only one I can think of) with known local info and not from questionable origins, that could take a while :wink:
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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby BluePumilio » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:17 am

I'm curious how the IACUC is anything other then a civil contract and not government regulations? I think the animals would be "legal", but a a civil contract may have been broken.


edwardsatc wrote:
thedude wrote:If they are being offered from a research project, they will have papers with them.


This should include the project IACUC protocol as IACUC requires protocol to explicitly state whether animals will be released to the public or "adopted" as a disposition. If it's not in the protocol, they were not legally released from the institution.

Many universities do not allow experimental animals to be released to the public at all. At my institution, I cannot release vertebrates from my lab to the public.

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:19 am

thedude wrote:
RichFrye wrote:No problem.
My sarcastic point was that with all the new anythings, I still await for new site obligate lines to become at least somewhat established. That interests me.
Show me something F3 from anything 'solid' and a decent locale and I love the project and commitment.


Considering there are only a handful of real site specific large obligates (Paru being the only one I can think of) with known local info and not from questionable origins, that could take a while :wink:


I guess I should also say that I would also be interested in any successful non-pum breeding past F1 . I can sort out the info behind it.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:20 am

ChrisK wrote:
RichFrye wrote:Show me something F3 from anything 'solid' and a decent locale and I love the project and commitment.

Hey, I'm workin on it! :P


Promises , promises.
Wanna trade?
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby BluePumilio » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:20 am

I hope not, that will be devastating to companies like Understory. It the EXACT reason why many govs refuse to allow small numbers of legal CB specimens out. They are afraid it will create a market for smuggled specimens being sold as CB.

SnakePaparazzi wrote:
ChrisK wrote:
Philsuma wrote:yeah considering they are all sub-adults to adults.

I'm no mind reader, but it sounds like Rich was being sarcastic that probably nobody will stick with them long enough. These frogs don't produce anywhere near what most non obligates do, and some don't even start till they're a couple of years old......



Or now that there are adults that are possibly "papered" and here "legally" (or in Europe for that matter), the doorway for smuggled froglets being sold as captive bred from either here or Europe might be opening...

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby BluePumilio » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:23 am

That would be great, but I'm thinking it won't happen. I keep talking to some fo the fish exporters down there and they don't seem to positive about it. If I remember correctly it's the correct regulations that closed off export, so unless new ones come up. I could be wrong, however. I'm not nearly as familiar with Colombia regulations/laws as quite a few other countries.

JJuchems wrote:
thedude wrote:Fake CITES is nothing new, however I had some information about Colombia and the possibility of Ecuador opening up in 2012. I figured a no for Ecuador, but Colombia...

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby thedude » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:30 am

RichFrye wrote:
I guess I should also say that I would also be interested in any successful non-pum breeding past F1 . I can sort out the info behind it.


I'm know of quite a few people that have bred granulifera, several sylvatica, and several histrionica past F1.
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Re: Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby ChrisK » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:32 am

RichFrye wrote:
ChrisK wrote:
RichFrye wrote:Show me something F3 from anything 'solid' and a decent locale and I love the project and commitment.

Hey, I'm workin on it! :P


Promises , promises.
Wanna trade?

You got my email address :P gonna be a while though, only got to F2 so far.

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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby thedude » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:33 am

Actually, I suppose I can only think of one type of sylvatica being bred past F1.
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Re: What's with all the Sylvatica suddenly?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:35 am

thedude wrote:
RichFrye wrote:
I guess I should also say that I would also be interested in any successful non-pum breeding past F1 . I can sort out the info behind it.


I'm know of quite a few people that have bred granulifera, several sylvatica, and several histrionica past F1.


So do many froggers. Point being, those are the one to take note of...
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476


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