Input on 'Paru' - pics

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
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RichFrye
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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:39 pm

Philsuma wrote:I think you are right about the chatter dying down and this thread not being well attended Rich.I can only surmise that the majority of the people working with this newly imported Species and Morph disagree with your management ideas and are unwilling to engage in further discussion here.


OMG, they were more than willing to tell me I was full of it, and more than willing to tell me to listen to MP (even though MP said essentially to breed them as you like, EITHER mixed or like to like...makes no sense, nobody manages animals as such)...what's keeping them quiet is the extremely muddied frogs I posted pictures of. Period.

I foretold the production of mud frogs from mixed populations, as Dr. Summers writes is the outcome of said mixings, and voila...mud is what was produced.

Anybody think anything other than mud when they see those two frogs? Objectively? Anybody? That's why the crickets Phil, nobody wants to say "you're right Rich".
You did actually say you were of my line of thought and you'd breed like to like Phil, I give you credit for that too...while others who were VERY vocal are most likely re-thinking their husbandry right now. They're not stupid, just not willing to give credit where credit's due, and they are not willing to swallow their pride either. Simple.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby thedude » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:35 am

If you are talking about me, I've been in eastern washington for the last few days with no internet access. So the pictures weren't keeping me quiet. "period" :D

Anyway what have you proven here? You posted pictures of various morphs of a single population of sylvatica known as Paru. This really can't be any clearer Rich. Frankly the discussion is way passed stale. I think the reason Mark said to breed them how you want is because they are your frogs and you're free to do with them what you will. He also explained how small this reserve is, and that it is a naturally integrating population between the San Lorenzo and Lita's. ALL of this has already been gone over, many points have been brought to your attention and you continue to ignore them.

Nothing has changed. If people are smart they will listen to the Herpetologists from Wikiri. If they don't oh well. As you have said, breeding will be interesting.
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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby Roadrunner » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:48 am

I see potential. Possibility of getting cheaper animals to pair w/ singles you may have. Potential to not loose the less spectacular specimens because of the rarity of the morph. Potential to produce beautiful offspring from pairing them to unlike individuals. The possibility of reintroducing populations that may be lacking in genetic diversity because of human intervention. The possibility of reducing smuggling by this species being available legally. I'm sure I could think of more if I thought more about it.
And considering the foremost researcher for any dart doesn't know everything(and that when you provide documentation for one species w/ peer reviewed literature you can't automatically say it stands true for another species w/out doing the research over w/ said species for it to hold up to peer review) I think it's a great project for experimenting, documenting and understanding a species while providing for research and protection(conservation) at the same time. Looks like a win/win to me:)
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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby Jeremy Huff » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:57 am

Rich, you keep mentioning Dr Summers in regard to the paper info you posted, but that paper wasn't authored by Summers. Which Summers paper are you referring to?

Also, feel free to send those 'mud' frogs out this way.

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:32 am

Jeremy Huff wrote:Rich, you keep mentioning Dr Summers in regard to the paper info you posted, but that paper wasn't authored by Summers. Which Summers paper are you referring to?

Also, feel free to send those 'mud' frogs out this way.


I'll dig out the papers Jeremy. I just happened to quote yet another paper which agrees with Dr. Summer's work, et al.
And yes, if you are working with parus I'd gladly send you the muddy looking one if you wish to trade for the ones which look closer to litas. Done deal. Email me for a trade agreement.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:35 am

thedude wrote:
Anyway what have you proven here? ...

Nothing has changed...


If this is really your stance Adam , I guess we will just have to wait some more time to see what rate the frogs produce these muddied frogs and if keeping like with like is the way to go.
If you can honestly look at those frogs and think they don't have mud issues, well, all I can say is objectivity is not happening here.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:47 am

aaronsfrogfarm wrote:I see potential. Possibility of getting cheaper animals to pair w/ singles you may have. Potential to not loose the less spectacular specimens because of the rarity of the morph. Potential to produce beautiful offspring from pairing them to unlike individuals. The possibility of reintroducing populations that may be lacking in genetic diversity because of human intervention. The possibility of reducing smuggling by this species being available legally. I'm sure I could think of more if I thought more about it.
And considering the foremost researcher for any dart doesn't know everything(and that when you provide documentation for one species w/ peer reviewed literature you can't automatically say it stands true for another species w/out doing the research over w/ said species for it to hold up to peer review) I think it's a great project for experimenting, documenting and understanding a species while providing for research and protection(conservation) at the same time. Looks like a win/win to me:)



First Aaron , the term "et al" means, ...and others. Not just Dr. Summers. Others too. Sylvatica are closely related to pums.
I am all for this project if correct breeding is occurring. I've stated more than once that I am always interested in trading for obligates with good info. I am looking for like frogs to breed with like frogs. I'll be working with these frogs. If anybody thinks I want frogs that I AM WORKING WITH to be considered 'not right' they are way off base. So, I'm looking for the best way to breed these paru. And we all know that both mixing them and like to like can not be the right way. It's one or the other.
I asked for objective input on the frogs pictured. They look muddy.

If anybody is working with parus and wants to trade a couple of theirs for the muddy looking ones pictured , please email me. I suggest we all wait until they are sexed though, which may take a bit of time. There's no reason to rush any aspect of these projects.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:53 am

Also Aaron, I too see potential, absolutely. But I also see the direct output pictured, and I don't want to work with frogs which look like the muddied ones pictured.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby Roadrunner » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:15 am

Then don't work w/ the ones pictured, you don't have to.

Do you have pictures of the parents of those frogs?

Who says both can't be right?

Have you seen a good portion of specimens of each, all(every) or any of these populations in the wild? Actual wild frogs in situ, not picked by locals for the trade? Whose to say this isn't a variant naturally occuring in certain populations which don't get seen or collected?

Have we seen what any of the offspring of multiple breedings of different pairings look like from the frogs coming in?

It just seems to me your trying to build a case rather than seeing what happens. I haven't even seen offspring of any of the captive breeding yet(unless those are cb). Personally I think it'd be great if you could get that sort of color and pattern variation from one population. Isn't that similar to the bullseye population? Don't they vary in background coloration and spotting coloration? Could've sworn I saw pics of different color bullseyes all in one tub(although they could've been cb from different populations).

And if they are mixed now and weren't in the wild and are all mixed together breeding before they get here(if I get right what your implying) what says that any of these animals coming in are from same color pairings? What do you do w/ the outliers,? breed them together and make a mixed bag morph? If so I don't see why any mixed pairings couldn't be slid into that category. Maybe the mixed populations will have increased vigor and be better breeders. I just think your jumping the gun a bit, although I may be wrong. It's happened before and I'm sure it wasn't the last time:)
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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:18 am

Not Dr. Summers' study yet, just another scientific paper which quotes his findings. Top of page 4.

http://www.usfca.edu/fac_staff/dever/po ... 20frog.pdf
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:27 am

aaronsfrogfarm wrote:Then don't work w/ the ones pictured, you don't have to.

Do you have pictures of the parents of those frogs?

Who says both can't be right?

Have you seen a good portion of specimens of each, all(every) or any of these populations in the wild? Actual wild frogs in situ, not picked by locals for the trade? Whose to say this isn't a variant naturally occuring in certain populations which don't get seen or collected?

Have we seen what any of the offspring of multiple breedings of different pairings look like from the frogs coming in?

It just seems to me your trying to build a case rather than seeing what happens. I haven't even seen offspring of any of the captive breeding yet(unless those are cb). Personally I think it'd be great if you could get that sort of color and pattern variation from one population. Isn't that similar to the bullseye population? Don't they vary in background coloration and spotting coloration? Could've sworn I saw pics of different color bullseyes all in one tub(although they could've been cb from different populations).

And if they are mixed now and weren't in the wild and are all mixed together breeding before they get here(if I get right what your implying) what says that any of these animals coming in are from same color pairings? What do you do w/ the outliers,? breed them together and make a mixed bag morph? If so I don't see why any mixed pairings couldn't be slid into that category. Maybe the mixed populations will have increased vigor and be better breeders. I just think your jumping the gun a bit, although I may be wrong. It's happened before and I'm sure it wasn't the last time:)


As I stated earlier in the other thread, it could be an issue if all of the collected breeders were all mixed together. Then the mixing can not be un-done. Agreed. There were different pens mentioned, I can only hope they were divided off by frogs found closest to each other.
What will tell the tale more than any one factor is if some breed like to like and consistently get bold, bright , like patterned frogs. And those which choose to mix phenotypes get muddy looking frogs.

My goal is to breed these as close to how they should be naturally bred, and to get as natural a representation as possible. I have a vested interest in this project. I'm not positive who else does, but I certainly do. And I certainly do not find the two frogs which are dull looking to be natural looking. Having personally bred hundreds if not thousands of obligate egg feeders.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:49 pm

One Summers paper stating;
"...different colour morphs of this frog are true breeding even when bred under identical conditions, while hybrids between colour morphs appear intermediate, consistent with genetic control of coloration."

http://core.ecu.edu/biol/summersk/summe ... umilio.pdf
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby edwardsatc » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:03 pm

RichFrye wrote:One Summers paper stating;
"...different colour morphs of this frog are true breeding even when bred under identical conditions, while hybrids between colour morphs appear intermediate, consistent with genetic control of coloration."

http://core.ecu.edu/biol/summersk/summe ... umilio.pdf


Some additional food for thought - the article also states:

"Among the mainland populations there appears to be some evidence for clinal variation proceeding from the outskirts of Chiriqui Grande (near the Guabo River) north-west towards Almirante (Fig. 2, populations 13, 12 and 11). The clinal variation is particularly apparent with respect to dorsal colour and pattern, and proceeds as follows: Guabo River (green), Robalo River (black with yellow stripes), Uyama River (black with whitish stripes). Frogs that appeared intermediate between the green Guabo River frogs and the yellow-striped Robalo frogs have been found between these two populations (K. Summers, pers. observ.) although they were not sampled in this study. They show a yellowish-green dorsal colour, with dark stripes or blotches. The Robalo River and the Uyama River populations show similar striped patterns, but the Robalo River populations have consistently yellow stripes, whereas the stripes on the Uyama River frogs tend to be more whitish, with a wide variety of tints."

RichFrye wrote:Not Dr. Summers' study yet, just another scientific paper which quotes his findings. Top of page 4.
http://www.usfca.edu/fac_staff/dever/po ... 20frog.pdf


A scientific paper? Did you really just use a poorly written junior year Herpetology class assignment as a citation? C'mon Rich, you can do better than that.

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby Philsuma » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:12 pm

....I did wonder as to the use of typeface -Calibri...such an 'unusual' choice for an academic paper.

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby Roadrunner » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:22 pm

So how would you separate those frogs? 5 populations or 1 and where would you draw the lines? How often do those "populations" interbreed? Do they all interbreed on the "fringes"?
Just breed like to like?

edwardsatc wrote:
RichFrye wrote:One Summers paper stating;
"...different colour morphs of this frog are true breeding even when bred under identical conditions, while hybrids between colour morphs appear intermediate, consistent with genetic control of coloration."

http://core.ecu.edu/biol/summersk/summe ... umilio.pdf


Some additional food for thought - the article also states:

"Among the mainland populations there appears to be some evidence for clinal variation proceeding from the outskirts of Chiriqui Grande (near the Guabo River) north-west towards Almirante (Fig. 2, populations 13, 12 and 11). The clinal variation is particularly apparent with respect to dorsal colour and pattern, and proceeds as follows: Guabo River (green), Robalo River (black with yellow stripes), Uyama River (black with whitish stripes). Frogs that appeared intermediate between the green Guabo River frogs and the yellow-striped Robalo frogs have been found between these two populations (K. Summers, pers. observ.) although they were not sampled in this study. They show a yellowish-green dorsal colour, with dark stripes or blotches. The Robalo River and the Uyama River populations show similar striped patterns, but the Robalo River populations have consistently yellow stripes, whereas the stripes on the Uyama River frogs tend to be more whitish, with a wide variety of tints."

RichFrye wrote:Not Dr. Summers' study yet, just another scientific paper which quotes his findings. Top of page 4.
http://www.usfca.edu/fac_staff/dever/po ... 20frog.pdf


A scientific paper? Did you really just use a poorly written junior year Herpetology class assignment as a citation? C'mon Rich, you can do better than that.
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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby Philsuma » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:30 pm

Aaron,

I have to side with Rich on this, as to the absence of population / range information...much less than O. pumilio even, which are confined to smaller ranges and in a lot of cases, tiny islands, I would breed 'like to like'.

My overriding concern would be - if we are 'wrong' then it's impossible to go....backwards and undo breeding, as you know that no one is going to cull THOSE froglets.

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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:35 pm

edwardsatc wrote:
RichFrye wrote:One Summers paper stating;
"...different colour morphs of this frog are true breeding even when bred under identical conditions, while hybrids between colour morphs appear intermediate, consistent with genetic control of coloration."

http://core.ecu.edu/biol/summersk/summe ... umilio.pdf


Some additional food for thought - the article also states:

"Among the mainland populations there appears to be some evidence for clinal variation proceeding from the outskirts of Chiriqui Grande (near the Guabo River) north-west towards Almirante (Fig. 2, populations 13, 12 and 11). The clinal variation is particularly apparent with respect to dorsal colour and pattern, and proceeds as follows: Guabo River (green), Robalo River (black with yellow stripes), Uyama River (black with whitish stripes). Frogs that appeared intermediate between the green Guabo River frogs and the yellow-striped Robalo frogs have been found between these two populations (K. Summers, pers. observ.) although they were not sampled in this study. They show a yellowish-green dorsal colour, with dark stripes or blotches. The Robalo River and the Uyama River populations show similar striped patterns, but the Robalo River populations have consistently yellow stripes, whereas the stripes on the Uyama River frogs tend to be more whitish, with a wide variety of tints."

RichFrye wrote:Not Dr. Summers' study yet, just another scientific paper which quotes his findings. Top of page 4.
http://www.usfca.edu/fac_staff/dever/po ... 20frog.pdf


A scientific paper? Did you really just use a poorly written junior year Herpetology class assignment as a citation? C'mon Rich, you can do better than that.


Fair enough, how 'bout the paper by Summers I cite?
Everyone knows what he's found. Mix and get mud. Hardly mind blowing. What term comes to mind when viewing the two frogs I posted? Sharp and distinct? Or other-wise?
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:46 pm

As you know better than most friends I talk to Aaron, we have laughed about it more that a few times, I am not one to simply go by what one scientist or student decides to put out as a paper.
What I do is go by a combination of science and personal experience.
By personal experience I know all darts I've work with breed true. By science Summers has proven what we would expect.
Now, I need a bit of science to tell me why I should throw out both science and personal experience and start mixing very distinctly different phenotypes from what is presented as the only highly polymorphic dart population known to man.
I have read by those involved that there needs to be scientific testing for them to understand what is going on, and I have read that a paper going into greater detail is forthcoming. I need to see what comes of both those pronounced needs for info.
Anybody know what lita looks like? A bullseye? Kois? Yes we do. Is there some variance? Of course, but no mud. We should breed as like to like as possible and do the best we can to match like to like. If and when it has been proven scientifically one way or another, and we can duplicate like to like or constant mud, and we take into account all the variables presented both by scientists and by experienced breeders and those who have seen many, many populations in the wild...we'll have a better idea of how to breed these. Until then I want to keep as unmixed as possible and will strive to do so.
aaronsfrogfarm wrote:So how would you separate those frogs? 5 populations or 1 and where would you draw the lines? How often do those "populations" interbreed? Do they all interbreed on the "fringes"?
Just breed like to like?

edwardsatc wrote:
RichFrye wrote:One Summers paper stating;
"...different colour morphs of this frog are true breeding even when bred under identical conditions, while hybrids between colour morphs appear intermediate, consistent with genetic control of coloration."

http://core.ecu.edu/biol/summersk/summe ... umilio.pdf


Some additional food for thought - the article also states:

"Among the mainland populations there appears to be some evidence for clinal variation proceeding from the outskirts of Chiriqui Grande (near the Guabo River) north-west towards Almirante (Fig. 2, populations 13, 12 and 11). The clinal variation is particularly apparent with respect to dorsal colour and pattern, and proceeds as follows: Guabo River (green), Robalo River (black with yellow stripes), Uyama River (black with whitish stripes). Frogs that appeared intermediate between the green Guabo River frogs and the yellow-striped Robalo frogs have been found between these two populations (K. Summers, pers. observ.) although they were not sampled in this study. They show a yellowish-green dorsal colour, with dark stripes or blotches. The Robalo River and the Uyama River populations show similar striped patterns, but the Robalo River populations have consistently yellow stripes, whereas the stripes on the Uyama River frogs tend to be more whitish, with a wide variety of tints."

RichFrye wrote:Not Dr. Summers' study yet, just another scientific paper which quotes his findings. Top of page 4.
http://www.usfca.edu/fac_staff/dever/po ... 20frog.pdf


A scientific paper? Did you really just use a poorly written junior year Herpetology class assignment as a citation? C'mon Rich, you can do better than that.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:52 pm

RichFrye wrote:
edwardsatc wrote:
RichFrye wrote:One Summers paper stating;
"...different colour morphs of this frog are true breeding even when bred under identical conditions, while hybrids between colour morphs appear intermediate, consistent with genetic control of coloration."

http://core.ecu.edu/biol/summersk/summe ... umilio.pdf


Some additional food for thought - the article also states:

"Among the mainland populations there appears to be some evidence for clinal variation proceeding from the outskirts of Chiriqui Grande (near the Guabo River) north-west towards Almirante (Fig. 2, populations 13, 12 and 11). The clinal variation is particularly apparent with respect to dorsal colour and pattern, and proceeds as follows: Guabo River (green), Robalo River (black with yellow stripes), Uyama River (black with whitish stripes). Frogs that appeared intermediate between the green Guabo River frogs and the yellow-striped Robalo frogs have been found between these two populations (K. Summers, pers. observ.) although they were not sampled in this study. They show a yellowish-green dorsal colour, with dark stripes or blotches. The Robalo River and the Uyama River populations show similar striped patterns, but the Robalo River populations have consistently yellow stripes, whereas the stripes on the Uyama River frogs tend to be more whitish, with a wide variety of tints."

RichFrye wrote:Not Dr. Summers' study yet, just another scientific paper which quotes his findings. Top of page 4.
http://www.usfca.edu/fac_staff/dever/po ... 20frog.pdf


A scientific paper? Did you really just use a poorly written junior year Herpetology class assignment as a citation? C'mon Rich, you can do better than that.


Fair enough, how 'bout the paper by Summers I cite?
Everyone knows what he's found. Mix and get mud. Hardly mind blowing. What term comes to mind when viewing the two frogs I posted? Sharp and distinct? Or other-wise?


Also, that was not as much a "look what the kids say" as it was citing ,yet again , the well known finding of Summers...et al. We all understand not to mix or you have issues.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: Input on 'Paru' - pics

Postby edwardsatc » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:02 pm

RichFrye wrote:
Fair enough, how 'bout the paper by Summers I cite?
Everyone knows what he's found. Mix and get mud. Hardly mind blowing. What term comes to mind when viewing the two frogs I posted? Sharp and distinct? Or other-wise?


That paper merely makes a one line reference to other published research and contains no data as to mixing. The paper you probably meant to cite is:

K. Summers, T. W. Cronin, T. Kennedy (2004) Cross-Breeding of Distinct Color Morphs of the Strawberry Poison Frog (Dendrobates pumilio) from the Bocas del Toro Archipelago, Panama. Journal of Herpetology 38(1):1-8.

"Mix and get mud" is not exactly the conclusions they come to. As outlined in the abstract, Summers, et al. make it quite clear that "The offspring typically displayed a mixture of colors but always showed color pattern if one parent showed color pattern. This suggests that color pattern is under single locus control with dominance, whereas coloration may be under polygenic control, or may represent a single locus system with incomplete dominance."

While color may be "muddied", pattern was representative of a patterned parent. Not quite as black and white as "mix and get mud".


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