"New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
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Philsuma
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"New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:47 pm

Coupl'a recent newsworthy tidbits. I'll try to tract down exact sources and re-post articles here on this thread when I find them.

Valiente pennisula, Panama may have some 'mainland' pumilio that appear very similar in size AND colour to escudo populations.

There has been a report of a bumpy or granular looking from found in Panama that would seem to give thought to the possibility of being related to the Costa Rica Oophaga granulerfera.

Interesting stuff and quite possibly a good reason to regard 'Escudo" imports by source and year with more diligence.

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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby rcteem » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:30 pm

Please do! Is there anty pictures of the new locale? Was it thought these have already came in with the SR imports?

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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:51 pm

lol...easy now...I saw these 2 news blurbs under more or less 'scientific announcements" BUT, Panama IS Panama, after all.

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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby RichFrye » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:13 pm

There have been grannies found in Panama for years and years.
If I did know where they were located I'd sure as heck not post it for the world.
The two frogs you mention ( escudo 'looking' mainland obligate and Pananma grannies) have nothing to do with each other. There have been pictures and info posted by JP about his mainland which are similar to the escudo, which just happen to be the very closest mainland area to Escudo Island.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby BluePumilio » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:45 pm

You may be referring to this pic?

Those are Ryans and my frogs. Valerie suggested they look like grannies because of the "granulated" nature.

Image

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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby BluePumilio » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:48 pm

I might also exclaim that Ryans are highly variable, at least what came in on the shipment. Some look just like Escudo (except the red it slightly different), while others have spotting, more greyish then blue, etc. They are the same size as Escudo.

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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby jeffr » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:25 am

BluePumilio wrote:I might also exclaim that Ryans are highly variable, at least what came in on the shipment. Some look just like Escudo (except the red it slightly different), while others have spotting, more greyish then blue, etc. They are the same size as Escudo.



from FB

Throughout Costa Rica and Panama there are a great variety of color morphs of the tiny (around 20mm long) strawberry poison frog (Oophaga pumilio). From the Valiente Peninsula in Panama, came this teeny tiny 'Ryan' morph of 'Oophaga pumilio’ with rather granular skin-- I suspect it represents a new species. ~Val

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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby BluePumilio » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:59 am

I think it'll be lumped with the Escudo.

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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby rcteem » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:36 am

So are you saying people will call these escudos or are you saying that it will be a seperate species like escudo?

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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby goods » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:22 am

I think he meant that if Escudo gets reclassified these will be considered a locale of that species.
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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby BluePumilio » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:33 am

Yep, that is what I meant. I could be wrong, but just an educated guess without looking at their genetic relations.

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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby goods » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:45 am

They do seem similar from pictures and measurements I've seen. I remember reading or hearing somewhere that there isn't as much support for splitting Escudo as there was at one time. I think it was JP who said that if you split Escudo, it would warrant the splitting of all island phenotypes into separate species since they are all genetically isolated from one another.
ZG

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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby BluePumilio » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:52 am

The research into the genetic relationships strongly suggest O. pumilio should be slit into three species. The CR clade, the Panama clade, and the "Escudo". The populations on the Valiente pennisula have not been looked at yet, but if they did not go into their own separate clade, they likely would go with the Escudo clade. Even the "mainland" populations show genetic flow, including isolated populations. However, right now there are clearly at least three evolutionary branches that have developed and warrant species status.

goods wrote:They do seem similar from pictures and measurements I've seen. I remember reading or hearing somewhere that there isn't as much support for splitting Escudo as there was at one time. I think it was JP who said that if you split Escudo, it would warrant the splitting of all island phenotypes into separate species since they are all genetically isolated from one another.

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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby BluePumilio » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:05 pm


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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby BluePumilio » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:12 pm

Another neat paper, but I find it strange it doesn't use out-groups.

https://www.eeb.ucla.edu/Faculty/Shaffe ... on2008.pdf

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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby goods » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:21 pm

Interesting. You read my mind haha...I was going to ask if you had any papers on it to read. Thanks!
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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby Strictly Reptiles » Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:55 pm

20130130_144230.jpg

Frogs
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20130130_144123.jpg

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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby Philsuma » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:21 pm

Very nice. ALL things considered...what are you referring to them as and what is the APPROX import date, at least year /season on those, Ray ?

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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby RichFrye » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:57 pm

Wait, wait. You mean there are pums in Panama that look a lot like other pums in totally different areas and they are totally different breeding populations !!??
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: "New" Locale Escudo and Grannies...

Postby BluePumilio » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:33 pm

Phil, those are Ryans from the latest import that Ray posted.

Philsuma wrote:Very nice. ALL things considered...what are you referring to them as and what is the APPROX import date, at least year /season on those, Ray ?


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