An Idea for a Pumillio List

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
Stu&Shaz
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An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby Stu&Shaz » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:00 am

Would it be possible for you experienced american froggers to put together a thread,listing all the morphs of pumillio available in the US hobby.This list would not only be a list of actual available morphs but dates of importation, whether site data is known and how one should breed lines withing a morph where applicable. Obivously there will be some differences of opinion,but surely there must be some consensus out there.Naturally if agreement can not be reached,then a maybe short paragraphs could be included expressing those opinions and reasoning. My ambitions for this are for a guy starting out into the world of pumillio to able to access all this in one place,in one thread. Guys I'm nowt but a novice,I'm not even in you're country,so for me other than being fascinated,I can't contribute. But if I lived over there,it would be great to have a resource such as this.

Phil,maybe this would take some management ,by your good self,to keep the debates minimal,or maybe have two threads running one for debating out a particular morph on for the actual "Finite guide". I do realise much of this info is out there and you guys are very passionate about how these frogs are kept and managed,but it would I think be very useful for a guy contemplating pumillio to know what options are available for one morph and have all that information in one place.

Maybe this just isn't workable,or even unwarranted,as I'm sure with some graft,the info can be found. ha ha maybe it's just a stupid idea,but the motivation behind it is ok.

thanks for reading

Stu

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Re: An Idea for Pumillio

Postby RichFrye » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:06 am

Stu&Shaz wrote:...

...Maybe this just isn't workable...

Stu


This is the issue Stu. Good info posted relies on good info given. If you have found bad info in the past from exporters or importers you essentially must work under the premise that more than the one or two or ten made up locales are just that, made up. Bad info = unworkable.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: An Idea for Pumillio

Postby Stu&Shaz » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:13 pm

RichFrye wrote:
Stu&Shaz wrote:...

...Maybe this just isn't workable...

Stu


This is the issue Stu. Good info posted relies on good info given. If you have found bad info in the past from exporters or importers you essentially must work under the premise that more than the one or two or ten made up locales are just that, made up. Bad info = unworkable.


Rich,I'm sure there are frogs bred in the US that do have some stonking good info,look I've been watching here quietly learning about pums for a while now,so if I wanted some site specific black jeans(correct me if I'm wrong but i'm almost sure you breed these) for example I'd probably be banging on your door. I would guess there are other morphs also with good site info from other lines(breeders) although no names spring to mind at this time. I'm also sure there are other pums whether the info isn't as well documented ,or just as you say the word of an exporter is all one has. But well in no way, are the two the same,surely those frogs deserve best effort as well. Rich deviating slightly I can't find site specific pums here with data,no lines pretty much zilch. So while things are as they are we are very limited here. Hence me pondering the other frogs,that have been brought in recently,plus the older frogs imported in the past,with less than one would like info wise. My thoughts are simply that although the information surrounding the recent pumilio is far from ideal many will be lost(wasted) if not managed,I was sort of pondering a central data base if you like to help less experienced guys understand what is available,what has site data what does not,even as you say what might be made up.

Rich I realise you point of view is strong and passionate,I realise others will disagree,that's why I wanted scope in this for those opinions to be expressed. Maybe it isn't something that is of any use at all. I thought it might be so I'd rather chuck it out there and be found wanting,than say nowt.

Thankyou for your thoughts

Regards

Stu

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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby BluePumilio » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:15 pm

I'm curious is the Black Jeans in the hobby really are site specific, or was that applies later on? I ask because I have site specific frogs from Siquirres and now from Seis Amigos, and very few individuals from the populations have black legs.

Where did the lines originally come from?

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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby Philsuma » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:19 pm

Stu,

GREAT idea and it CAN work with some caveats.

Like Rich says, the majority of all pumilio importation, especially the older stuff is completely non site/locale specific and virtually impossible to accurately name. We can say 'Yellow bellies" and think Cayo de Aqua or 'Eldorados" and try to make some photo reference to Bri Bri or Las Tablas, but all we are left with in the end is picture book stuff, i.e what it's CLOSE to looking like.

Now we CAN do the best we can, and try to record as much info as possible for SNDF and SR yada yada - dates and numbers and whatever names we can best come up with, but in the end, it's going to just be a 'best possible' list of pumilio and far from accurate and VERY far from being able to say "what came from where in Panama".

The U.S hobby is just as 'bad' as in the U.K, i'm afraid, in terms of inconclusiveness.

Still...any effort is better than zero effort. We do what we can, with what we have.

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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:05 am

Thanks Phil,in all honestly I felt you guys to have more info,than we have here. I think if this was to work then sure far more able and knowledgable keepers are needed to put it together than me. As before I'd rather throw it out there for debate and the consensus be it won't work,than just muse in in the old grey matter. I thought it might just simplify things,for newer guys to pums. Worth a punt me old mucker :D .

best

Stu

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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby Philsuma » Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:03 pm

Here's something Fieldsmith started...

Oophaga pumilio- Almirante, Bastimentos (Gold Dust, Green, Orange, Red, Yellow, White), Black Jeans, Blue Jeans, BriBri, Cauchero, Caya de Agua, Cayo Nancy, Colon, Cristobal (Red, Orange, Yellow), Darkland, El Dorado, Escudo-possibly a unique species (Red, Blue), Man Creek, Popa, Robalo, Rio Branco Solarte (Red, Orange, White), Uyama, Yellow Belly .

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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:19 pm

Phil what I'm trying to convey and It is TOTALLY my fault the message is getting over,is something,way more sophisticated.Field,not to say your list of hobby available species isn't cool!! I'm just after much more detail.

Phil here is an section of my hypothetical thread/s in an effort to convey my point

lets take black jeans as a hypothetical example

New lines of BlJ have recently been imported, by Fireman Spam they were imported on two occasions march 2013 sept 2013, site data X and Y

Fireman Spam also imported from the exact same locals X and Y back in 2007

Older black jeans exist in the US bred by Bob the builder Bob got his directly from the field and imported them himself back in 2003 he has site data where they were collected at location Z

Seaman Staines also has black jeans and his have no site or import data he got them from the EU in 2005

These are all the(hypothetical) lines we know of in the US hobby.
So a new guy can clearly deduce from this section of the thread that only Spam's frogs from different import years can be bred together,but care must be taken not to mix up the two separate locals that Spam imported.

The same sort of thing would be repeated over each morph of pum in the US some will have no collection data some will have data and very good data at that. A new guy that wants to keep blackjeans will have choices . If he just wants some red frogs with black legs he'll look for the Staines line,he will also know from this, that he should not mix Spam or Builder lines and so on and so forth. Most of the pums stateside will carry little data other than possibly an import year,but clarity of what could possibly done with said frogs to keep them in the hobby would all be in one place via those two threads,an opinions/debated thread,leading via consensus to the data thread.

There would naturally have to be some degree of trust some caviats to all this we don't live in an ideal world of lots of sustainable sourced pums with accurate site data,but you guys have some very very knowledgable folks keeping darts whom have done so for a bloody long time so ,some form of data for each morph could possibly be added, even if purity of morph could not be assimilated.

Does that make more sense Phil,every bit of data in one place reached by consensus,where no consensus can be reached,opinions would be voiced to let the new guy make some form of "educated" choices. Steered by the knowledge of hobby "elders"

Phil alot of folks here just want some pretty frogs no birth certificate no lines "who cares" same over there ,from what I understand. But there are new guys that do care ,both here and there whom would like site specific frogs whom would like clarity of info or at least to know that there is no clarity of info for that frog they keep.

be lucky mate

Stu

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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby Philsuma » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:49 pm

No, I totally get it Stu....it just ain't gonna happen, and more's the pity. You just described a 'high end' scenario with tip top info and we have nothing close to that.

Rich Frye has some locale specific pumilio due to a University study.

Justin M. (bluepumilio) has imported some C.R stuff lately and you'll have to inquire and see for yourself just what info he has on them - I've no reason not to believe he has locale info.

Strickly is lacking. SNDF has some info- NOT a lot.

We are just 'threadbare' here in the U.S for anything close to be able to be charted and tracked.....Threadbare.

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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby Jacobi » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:23 am

Philsuma wrote:No, I totally get it Stu....it just ain't gonna happen, and more's the pity. You just described a 'high end' scenario with tip top info and we have nothing close to that.

Rich Frye has some locale specific pumilio due to a University study.

Justin M. (bluepumilio) has imported some C.R stuff lately and you'll have to inquire and see for yourself just what info he has on them - I've no reason not to believe he has locale info.

Strickly is lacking. SNDF has some info- NOT a lot.

We are just 'threadbare' here in the U.S for anything close to be able to be charted and tracked.....Threadbare.


I'm one of those people who are new to this and want good info, not just "pretty frogs". How is it possible for these animals to be legally exported without more detailed info? Does the information exist, but the importers keep it secret?

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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby Philsuma » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:44 am

The Central American exporter is sometimes obtaining the frogs thru middlemen - other 'dealers' or perhaps families and children who are paid to collect what they can, where they can and stuff them into a cola bottle enroute to the final collection and packaging facility and then the airport for export. Since many 'hands' have contributed to this process, it's hard to impossible to provide even basic collection / GPS data. Up until 2 years ago, not many people in the business part of things cared. Strictly Reptiles, through Sidney F, made efforts with recent shipments, to improve this process, and at least, get some semblance of better info.

Costa Rica may be different. Justin M. has helped to import pumilio and these animals may be more accurate in their locale data. With the information that I have, I'd like to believe it.

Panama is different, and always will be. Although a signatory nation to CITES ,it somehow skirts reporting and quotas of pumilio, as I understand it. This is the first 'odd issue'. The second is that EVERYONE except us, considers a strawberry dart frog - a strawberry dart frog. There are no export/importation issues with the marine preserve- Isla de Escudo for instance. Does that make those particular frogs as easy to export as 'cristobal's' ? I think so.

Who would I trust 100% ?

I would trust....me. Me with a GPS.

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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby Philsuma » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:46 am


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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:41 pm

Philsuma wrote:No, I totally get it Stu....it just ain't gonna happen, and more's the pity. You just described a 'high end' scenario with tip top info and we have nothing close to that.

Rich Frye has some locale specific pumilio due to a University study.

Justin M. (bluepumilio) has imported some C.R stuff lately and you'll have to inquire and see for yourself just what info he has on them - I've no reason not to believe he has locale info.

Strickly is lacking. SNDF has some info- NOT a lot.

We are just 'threadbare' here in the U.S for anything close to be able to be charted and tracked.....Threadbare.



My bad Phil, I thought I hadn't got my point over well enough.

Honestly I thought there might be others with data,apart from Rich and Justin. Oh for the record,I have watched both guys defend themselves and their frogs. If we were over there and in a position to buy off them,then I also believe both would give me the info I asked for by polite private conversations, to complete my insight in to the frogs they breed or import. Im would have used their names,but felt it rude without speaking to them first,for those hypothetical examples,so I grabbed characters from kids TV instead. But lay all that to one side,I really thought their were others with site info: a name similar to Nahn,springs to mind for one,anyway thanks for correcting that Phil 8),much appreciated !

Hey ho buddy worth a try out was it not :)

Stu

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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:41 pm

BluePumilio wrote:I'm curious is the Black Jeans in the hobby really are site specific, or was that applies later on? I ask because I have site specific frogs from Siquirres and now from Seis Amigos, and very few individuals from the populations have black legs.

Where did the lines originally come from?


Most of the populations that are actually the very closest to Siquirres (in and directly touching the slum that is Siquirres) DO have black legs. If you would like to give me GPS coordinates I can take shots ( not the same shots we occasionally hear around Siquirres...) the next time I am down there and we can compare locales.
I was under the impression very specific locale info was not being given to you personally. At least that was the last conversation we had pertaining to your siquirres frogs.

The fact that I am rewarded for giving out true , accurate , pertinent info about my frogs with crusades against those researchers wanting the best for their frogs now has me tighter lipped than some years ago. Congrats to those involved . Anyone who does not know of the assholes involved with that, just PM me for an earful...

The answer as to where my personal Black Jeans came from originally is Siquirres CR.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby BluePumilio » Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:19 pm

Rich,

I have specific locale on all the CR frogs, one of us misunderstood the other.

What I'm wondering is where the Siquirres Black Jeans stock came from? Euro imports or University stock? I want to know if the Siquirres got added on at a later date. I can't find info on this.

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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:37 pm

BluePumilio wrote:Rich,

I have specific locale on all the CR frogs, one of us misunderstood the other.

What I'm wondering is where the Siquirres Black Jeans stock came from? Euro imports or University stock? I want to know if the Siquirres got added on at a later date. I can't find info on this.



This is the latest info I have from you. As I am always interested in legal site specific obligates with good info I am still interested in specific locale info beyond "near siquirres".

I can't speak to all of the supposed Black Jeans stock. Some who attach names to stock can be trusted and have never given a reason to need to be questioned...and then there are those on the far side of that trust factor.

Your last PM pertaining to your stock;

"
I don't have the exact locale except they are also found near siquirres. "
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby BluePumilio » Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:50 pm

Please don't take anything below negatively, and I fully mean that.

First, I don't think it'a proper to post ANY personal correspondence in a public forum. What's the point of a personal message then? Lesson learned, I guess when you put anything through the internet, expect it to get out out there.

Second, I have been given the location, at the time I didn't want to press for it when I have enough questions going their way. To me the GPS coordinates seemed unnecessary. You can only bother someone so much for minute details when there are more important things to ask about. Time is limited...

Ok, then did where did your line of Black Jeans come from? Euro or University stock? I know I've seen other black jeans have been brought in from Europe, but I didn't think these had locality information. In Europe they don't mention Siquirres, just "Black Jean".

A small percentage of the Siquirres stock being bred in CR does come out with black legs, but the majority comes out with dark blue legs. The same with the nearby population of Seis Amigos.

RichFrye wrote:
BluePumilio wrote:Rich,

I have specific locale on all the CR frogs, one of us misunderstood the other.

What I'm wondering is where the Siquirres Black Jeans stock came from? Euro imports or University stock? I want to know if the Siquirres got added on at a later date. I can't find info on this.



This is the latest info I have from you. As I am always interested in legal site specific obligates with good info I am still interested in specific locale info beyond "near siquirres".

I can't speak to all of the supposed Black Jeans stock. Some who attach names to stock can be trusted and have never given a reason to need to be questioned...and then there are those on the far side of that trust factor.

Your last PM pertaining to your stock;

"
I don't have the exact locale except they are also found near siquirres. "

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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby RichFrye » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:31 pm

BluePumilio wrote:
First, I don't think it'a proper to post ANY personal correspondence in a public forum. What's the point of a personal message then? Lesson learned, I guess when you put anything through the internet, expect it to get out out there.


First, one of us did not misunderstand the other. The last info you gave me was as such , and it should very much not get you upset. You either forgot to give me the info I have repeatedly asked for, or you have specifically chosen not to. Which is it?.
I have more secrets I have kept over the last decade than I have information I plan on posting via the interweb for the rest of my dart frog keeping days...
There's nobody out there that thinks me to be loose lipped.
That should be your lesson learned.


BluePumilio wrote:
Second, I have been given the location, at the time I didn't want to press for it when I have enough questions going their way. To me the GPS coordinates seemed unnecessary. You can only bother someone so much for minute details when there are more important things to ask about. Time is limited...


I am not asking for exact GPS info, nor giving it myself. But "near siquirres" does not make sense, in my experience, my personal experience.
It's all about details Justin, especially when you personally want them also. It should not be "a bother" to someone breeding for $$$$.
This continues to be my major issue with Paru frogs and WIRIKI. Sell first, give info later...or worse, never.


BluePumilio wrote:
Ok, then did where did your line of Black Jeans come from? Euro or University stock? I know I've seen other black jeans have been brought in from Europe, but I didn't think these had locality information. In Europe they don't mention Siquirres, just "Black Jean".


See above note about assholes and tight lippedness...I survived The Crusades...
I will give this bit of info though. You are very wrong about them not mentioning Siquirres as the locale for Black Jeans. You may need to plug in the words schwarz beine and translate a bit. But it's out there.
BluePumilio wrote:
A small percentage of the Siquirres stock being bred in CR does come out with black legs, but the majority comes out with dark blue legs. The same with the nearby population of Seis Amigos.



I guess our notes do not match up on this. At least my personal experience over the years does not match up with that.
And when I post a definitive on line, for the world to see, forever and ever...I'm fairly sure of what I post.


RichFrye wrote:
BluePumilio wrote:Rich,

I have specific locale on all the CR frogs, one of us misunderstood the other.

What I'm wondering is where the Siquirres Black Jeans stock came from? Euro imports or University stock? I want to know if the Siquirres got added on at a later date. I can't find info on this.



This is the latest info I have from you. As I am always interested in legal site specific obligates with good info I am still interested in specific locale info beyond "near siquirres".

I can't speak to all of the supposed Black Jeans stock. Some who attach names to stock can be trusted and have never given a reason to need to be questioned...and then there are those on the far side of that trust factor.

Your last PM pertaining to your stock;

"
I don't have the exact locale except they are also found near siquirres. "
[/quote]
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby BluePumilio » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:05 pm

Rich,

What I am asking is how do we know the locality given for the black jeans is correct? I know that the closest town my Siquirres line is collected is Siquirres. I stated that before, privately, and I don't know how to get more specific without giving GPS. Either way, I have no doubt to the locale of the Siquirres breeding stock that are being exported from CR.

I don't have enough information on the Siquirres Black Jeans, though. Which is why I'm curious about it. Do we actually know the collection location as Siquirres? If it wasn't brought in through the US universities, but through Europe, is it possible there is a better locale name for the Siquirres Black Jeans? Do we have GPS information, or just the locale of "Siquirres"? I ask because the more I learn about the frogs they keep and breed in CR, the more I wonder why blue jean offspring are not popping up in the Black Jeans when the Seis Amigos as Siquirres locales have blue legged as well as a few black legged individuals.

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Re: An Idea for a Pumillio List

Postby Philsuma » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:15 pm

Well there ya go Stu...question answered ?


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