Oophaga pumilio punta lauren discussion

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
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RichFrye
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:22 pm

...and, Chris, you just thanked a post telling you , BEGGING you NOT to buy WC...something you just did.
I don' get it.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:24 pm

KGB wrote:
Exactly what are you basing your opinion of my supposed high prices?
Yes, compared to pums grabbed off any plot of land in Panama my captive bred pedigreed frogs are more costly.


Way to sound like more of a snob than you already are. Hey im going to swing over to your place and we can talk about how im a problem in the hobby since you wont respond to my pm's.

Swing all you want big boy.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:33 pm

randommind wrote:
cbreon wrote:
hoppityBoppity11 wrote: Is the population taking a hit with these imports? Maybe...maybe not. Who knows. Unless youre willing to move to panama to conduct an extensive research on their population and return here and prove to us indeed theyre taking a great hit, Id suggest you let those of us who are happy with what we have and have the privilage to work with and let us enjoy them!



I'd have to disagree with your point of view. This mentality has resulted in several species world-wide being pushed to the brink of extinction. The fact is Panama isn't following the proper protocols in determining the sustainability of these populations and that is discouraging. Couple that with the faux-farms and it really paints a grim picture. Why would they need to lie about frog farms if this was being done responsibly?




In support of the above:

do not, I repeat, do not get anything other than captive bred. Even farm raised, I wouldn't trust. If the frog didn't hatch out in the U.S. or Europe, I would not touch it. I'm afraid, at this rate, this population may disappear quickly."[/i]

- J.P. Lawrence PhD Student / Oophaga pumilio Researcher
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby bluefrogtat2 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:47 pm

I usually don't comment but feel I should, I have about 10 years experience breeding pdfs, I took off the last 8 years, coming back into it I notice some big changes. .. where did all the elitists come from? In '97 there were top breeders, I'm glad to see some of them still in the industry, sad to see some no longer around. . is awesome that we have forums now to get info allot more readily. .its incredible actually. .there have always been wild caught(I remember $20 blue jeans on every table)were they legal?who knows?I had assumed they were(even bought histos right off same table)I love that they are attempting to regulate now(is it ideal?I doubt it)but at least I'm not seeing the die off rate of past. ..I have several pairs of strictly imports, and I'm sure I'll have several more in future. .I love that the most vocal and outspoken people are also the ones I got warnings about when re entering the hobby. .I think maybe most of them have a much higher regard for themselves than anyone else does, and where were these same people 20 years ago?the actual respected members of the hobby of past that are still around and have produced and sustained the industry up to date, and earned the most respect don't need to argue and cause waves at all times. .
Remember. . all frogs currently in hobby were wc at some time. ..
I personally would like to thank the people trying to legally bring in New frogs in the hobby. ..
And to the elitists I would say, it must be awesome to reign in your own world. ..
To bad most of the actual benefits to the hobby don't agree ..
Sorry to rant. .
Best of luck with all recent imports. .
Andy

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby frogs are cool » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:57 pm

RichFrye wrote:...and, Chris, you just thanked a post telling you , BEGGING you NOT to buy WC...something you just did.
I don' get it.

I did thank the post because that was something i didnt know. This is the first WC frog i have ever owned Rich the First Oophaga. In twelve years i have stayed away from these frogs because of the drain i saw placed up on them. It will probably be the only Oophaga i ever own. And the prices people are selling captive breed frogs for is only increasing collecting. Like you said $700 a pair how much does that bring up wc? $200 a frog? And the frogs i purchased are linked to a strickly import in origin even though im their third owner from the import date. I feel a lot of people are asking to much for forgs. I think it only increases the rate of collection JMO.
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:16 pm

AHHH, I see one issue here...
you fail to read and understand that I charged $700 for a proven TRIO of blue jeans.
Before you start pronouncing to the world that I charge "ridiculous" prices, read and digest what is written.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:19 pm

bluefrogtat2 wrote:
...Sorry to rant...
Andy


It's OK Andy.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby bluefrogtat2 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:22 pm

I know. ...lol

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby Philsuma » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:46 pm

here's a few appropriate threads (to the above argument on WC vs CB) to read...

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=4269

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=6568

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1179

I dunno 'bout no 'elitism' or nuttin' .....but I do know....this ain't yer grandpappy's hobby.

and I for one am glad.

Love the MANY different levels of EVOLUTION of the hobby!

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby bluefrogtat2 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:56 pm

Could not agree more. .
I love how much is available as cb now. .
Incredible. .
Bit also love the influx of recent imports. .
Was very limited in the past. .
Now my collection is allot more diverse. .
I agree with both arguments. . prefer cb, but without wc, no new cb...
Great thread s for sure

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby hoppityBoppity11 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:22 pm

Beautiful!
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby Philsuma » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:25 pm

undeniably !

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby KGB » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:47 pm

Image

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby TonyI25 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:55 pm

Pretty insane how such a simple thread became an intense debate. I love it though! I think I read on here somewhere someone saying we should take money from each wc frog bought and put it to some organization in helping the decline of populations of these frogs in the wild.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby Philsuma » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:12 pm

We (hobby) are going to start donations to a Native In-situ program here rule soon. As far as I know, it will be a hobby first - donations for future efforts and not direct money per frog. I like it. It's something new and can have a lasting effect, I feel.

As for debate (intense, insane, inane) ? We need it to move forward. People that are turned off by the occasional argument or rough patch are the ones the tend to leave the movie theater early, leave the stadium early ect. A lot of good things happen towards the end of things...wait it out.

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby bluefrogtat2 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:18 pm

Gorgeous frogs

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby frogs are cool » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:07 pm

RichFrye wrote:...and, Chris, you just thanked a post telling you , BEGGING you NOT to buy WC...something you just did.
I don' get it.

How many frogs in your collection are from wild caught stock?
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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby RichFrye » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:01 pm

frogs are cool wrote:
RichFrye wrote:...and, Chris, you just thanked a post telling you , BEGGING you NOT to buy WC...something you just did.
I don' get it.

How many frogs in your collection are from wild caught stock?

Everyone's are , if you go far enough back in time.
The difference is how they are collected NOW and who is involved.
The difference is also pedegree. The people involved in the importing and exporting of these
Specific people have been caught in lies multiple times regarding these frogs and other animals.
You have now been given a tiny glimpse into what is happening in Panama. There is tons and tons of good info revolving about these Panama pums over the last decade.
Pretty frogs, as are almost all darts. But not a pretty history.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby frogs are cool » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:18 pm

RichFrye wrote:
frogs are cool wrote:
RichFrye wrote:...and, Chris, you just thanked a post telling you , BEGGING you NOT to buy WC...something you just did.
I don' get it.

How many frogs in your collection are from wild caught stock?

Everyone's are , if you go far enough back in time.
The difference is how they are collected NOW and who is involved.
The difference is also pedegree. The people involved in the importing and exporting of these
Specific people have been caught in lies multiple times regarding these frogs and other animals.
You have now been given a tiny glimpse into what is happening in Panama. There is tons and tons of good info revolving about these Panama pums over the last decade.
Pretty frogs, as are almost all darts. But not a pretty history.

I do not agree with a wc being different because of the way it was collected. I agree "Not a pretty History." I think its going to take more than just shunning importers and supporting others. Lower the prices of these frogs and lower the import rate. Have the "Farms" you support have an option for donations to help support them and then you can donate as much as you want to help the cause for new blood. But when someone talks about money it makes everyone mad, Not directed at you alone Rich just speaking in general.
~Master Yoda

"When nine hundred years old you reach, look as good, you will not, hmmm?"
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Beyond-Co ... 7315219353

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Re: Oophaga pumilio punta lauren

Postby cbreon » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:35 pm

frogs are cool wrote:
RichFrye wrote:
frogs are cool wrote:How many frogs in your collection are from wild caught stock?

Everyone's are , if you go far enough back in time.
The difference is how they are collected NOW and who is involved.
The difference is also pedegree. The people involved in the importing and exporting of these
Specific people have been caught in lies multiple times regarding these frogs and other animals.
You have now been given a tiny glimpse into what is happening in Panama. There is tons and tons of good info revolving about these Panama pums over the last decade.
Pretty frogs, as are almost all darts. But not a pretty history.

I do not agree with a wc being different because of the way it was collected. I agree "Not a pretty History." I think its going to take more than just shunning importers and supporting others. Lower the prices of these frogs and lower the import rate. Have the "Farms" you support have an option for donations to help support them and then you can donate as much as you want to help the cause for new blood. But when someone talks about money it makes everyone mad, Not directed at you alone Rich just speaking in general.


Well, just on a money level, running a farm and beeding frogs in another country costs money, and requires permits, lawyers, etc, which cost more money. Getting into unfriendly territory or personal property, that costs even more money. Disregarding laws and paying third world children .50-1.00 a frog to catch as many as they can in a plastic bottle and then shipping them is much, much cheaper. So, to your point, all wc frogs aren't the same, not even close.

In regards to responsible or sustainable harvest there are also Significant differences. On one hand you have places in Columbia doing the research and obtaining the permits necessary to determine the overall health of the population before it's collected. On the other hand, in Panama, you have absolutely no scientific research done regarding the health of the overall population and sometimes hundreds of animals collected at a shot. Don't take my word for it, see the comments of Chris Van der lingen or Jp, and others. These are people that are considered experts in pumilio research and field experience.

So, I really don't understand how anyone could says lol wc animals are the same


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