Historic Oophaga lineages?

Oophaga arborea
Oophaga granulifera
Oophaga histrionica
Oophaga lehmanni
Oophaga occultator
Oophaga pumilio
Oophaga speciosa
Oophaga sylvatica
Oophaga vicentei
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Sherman
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Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Sherman » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:49 am

Can anyone show record of successful captive propagation of large Oophaga from the 90s? (Which I do not argue could have happened) I would imagine that this would be something people would be proud of and maybe want to share. Photography and the hobby seem to have always gone hand and hand.

A series of photos?, with increasing mega pixel resolution, with perhaps a mullet or something.

I am only asking a question here. It is based on the fact that I have heard claims of "from the 90s" attached to frogs that were not seen then. Please don't get all pissed off either, I am just trying to tease out information that may increase the contrast in a grey area.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:04 am

Quite the opposite Chris. That's top secret data, heh.

Taron showed up in Chicago at Frog Day 2012 with a 'hotel room full' of sylvatica from the 'EU'. Oh well...

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:07 am

The CITES numbers that are real eye-openers for me are the pre-2015 lehmanni and granulifera - both imported in very low numbers. Too low to have made it into the hands of so many hobbyists. Does not 'add up' to me.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby joneill809 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:50 am

I'm interested now too. Based on the CITES records, a lot of these animals were brought in during the 90's. If I'm interpreting the CITES data correctly, there were hundreds of "O. histrionica" imported per year from 1994 to 1997. Here's a plot of the US import data:
CITES-histrionicaImports-US.png
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
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http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Sherman » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:10 pm

Philsuma wrote:Quite the opposite Chris. That's top secret data, heh.


It seems to have been top secret, but now it would be a great marketing tool. Legal animals, bred successfully for generations in captivity, give me some lineage/ record of it, and now you have a "holy grail" frog in my opinion. (Well you could still use some collection data!)

joneill809 wrote:I'm interested now too. Based on the CITES records, a lot of these animals were brought in during the 90's. If I'm interpreting the CITES data correctly, there were hundreds of "O. histrionica" imported per year from 1994 to 1997. Here's a plot of the US import data:


I do not doubt that there are some animals that harken back to these imports. Some of these animals may be alive still. The problem is, that no one seemed to be able to breed them regularly or consistently then and smuggled animals came into the country during the "down years" on John's chart. This is when some of the first (public) success was being had with these animals. As we know from "farmed" pumilio, fresh imports breed more readily than long term captives or CB animals.
Hence the thick fog that is currently surrounding these animals. One more SOLID reason to keep good records and pass them on with your offspring.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby joneill809 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:43 pm

So ~11 of 3800+ O histrionica with CITES data are from Colombia, while 3400+ are from Ecuador. Are there any good references summarizing color morph distributions? I'm asking because I know nothing about them. For instance are bullseyes only from Colombia, or does their range span Ecuador as well?
Jim from Austin please contact me if you are willing to trade offspring from:
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http://www.oneillscrossing.com/dart-frogs/

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:10 pm

Lets not forget that it was and still is, VERY common for animals to be collected in neighboring countries and spirited across borders to be exported from the secondary country. Those histrionicus may indeed be 'all Colombian'.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:16 pm

A rough guide made about 4 years ago by 'Frog and Toad' screen name.
Attachments
OOPHAGA HISTRIONICA GUIDE.jpg
histronicus and lehmanni colour guide

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:22 pm

It certainly looks like John from NYC is breeding two different populations of redheads. Good/bad or indifferent aside...the patterns are so different that it does seem that way, to me at least.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Sherman » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:49 pm

Philsuma wrote:It certainly looks like John from NYC is breeding two different populations of redheads. Good/bad or indifferent aside...the patterns are so different that it does seem that way, to me at least.

Not really on topic here. New thread perhaps?

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Philsuma » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:52 pm

It's still talk about 'lineages' / populations of big O's...

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Sherman » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:55 pm

Are those not all new from Tesoros?
If you feel those are a mixed grouping it would not fall under "historic".

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Sherman » Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:34 pm

Oh well.

So if anyone can produce ANY record of successful reproduction of large Oophaga from the 90s till now, it would be a great help in clearing the air with some of these animals.

Puerto Quitos?
Anyone....anyone?

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Sherman » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:06 pm

Does anyone have photos of any large Oophaga imported in the 90s? Or can you point me in the right direction please?

I know there were bullseyes and redheads, but the stunning variety that are publicly traded lately seems fishy.
White Foots? Puerto Quito? Bilsa? Durango? Lita?
I suspect some of these have only recently been bred in the 90s. :D

I think this conversation gets stomped down quite often and some people legitimately do not understand, others I imagine just don't care.

Feel free to PM me with information if you don't want to get in the middle of this. I will honor your right to privacy.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Coqui » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:09 am

I agree, if anyone had any data, pics, etc and would share the information it would be a great help. However, in my opinion these frogs that came in the 90's according to some threads that I have read were no big deal. I have even read that some Histos were used as filler in fish shipments. My point is, I don't think anyone really kept records and documented any information. I would imagine even photos are rare considering that I don't even think the digital age was as advance as it is today.
Polaroid anyone?

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby rcteem » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:27 am

It wasn't that secret of info. Rob Melacon was one of the people that first comes to mind when breeding 90s imported large obligates. He even had a website with all the info posted and lineage etc. His site just recently went down but if you do a search on the other forum you can find a lot of info about it.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Sherman » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:07 am

I guess my whole point is that it is a shame that careful records were not kept on these lineages.

If lineages were maintained there would be significantly less "grey" surrounding the legitimate animals. There is a stigma attached to all of these animals, and rightly so in my opinion, due of the general lack of information or evidence of wide spread success with them (exceptions do exist), coupled with the knowledge that animals of questionable origins are still coming in. I would be interested to know the ratio of 100% legit animals to those with smuggled blood. I am fairly certain that the small group of people having success throughout the decades did not maintain the variety we see today. I can understand people not wanting to defend their animals every time they post, but I do not want to see the smuggled side of them completely ignored. This story needs to be repeated or new hobbyists will not know it.

Moving forward, I hope people record lineages and pass them along, in writing, with their offspring so that animals of dubious origin are less likely to blend in. Not only with the new 100% legit animals from WIKIRI and Tesoros, but the old lines too. Any information available can start a record, even if it is "no information". As with all things human, trust and integrity of the source will always come into play, as that paperwork can and will be forged by the less than honorable among us.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby goods » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:10 pm

Why are you fairly certain that there was less variety than there are today?

There are certain locales that have come in as a whole after the legal importations of these old lines, but there was much more variety coming in in the 90s than what is currently available and fairly decent successes were had with most of them.

The only locales I can think of that have not continued to be maintained are San Juan and Ecuadorian Valley.
ZG

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby Philsuma » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:18 pm

Just the lack of husbandry skill alone - not knowing how to care for the '1st generation' (1990's) of Dart Frogs.

Remember (or maybe you don't if you are too young and I suspect that is the case), that in the 1990's, fruit fly accessability and culturing was a BIG deal. FF were not mainstream. Crickets were given to almost all those large obligates.

And

Vitamins and other supplements in the early 90's ? Ha !! Those above issues alone would be reasonable to suspect that the 1990's import had a high mortality. VERY high. MUCH higher than now.

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Re: Historic Oophaga lineages?

Postby goods » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:27 pm

Phil, I'm very well aware of the hurdles of PDF husbandry in the 90s, but I'm also very well aware of extremely innovative people who successfully kept and bred dart frogs in the US in the 80s. These same people (one was mentioned) had success with those 90s large obligates and kept diverse selections of them.
ZG


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