Poll - Dart Frogs - how important is getting a future pair ?

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When purchasing dart frogs, how important is getting a future pair?

Breeding is not important to me, I don't care about pairs, I just want the frogs.
5
7%
Somewhat important, ok with a pair, or not.
30
42%
I search and wait to buy what I want to eventually be a proven pair of specific species.
36
51%
 
Total votes: 71

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Poll - Dart Frogs - how important is getting a future pair ?

Postby Azurel » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:04 pm

One of the things that I first looked into considering the idea of breeding was unrelated bloodlines, or unrelated frogs. For me personally I have the thought of trying to purchase frogs within my interested species that are not related to pair together. For me I think that if the bloodlines are available with in the hobby to do so, that is the route that should be taken as opposed to breeding related frogs if it is at all possible to avoid.

So with that in mind when you are looking to purchase frogs do you look to get frogs that are unrelated if the genetic diversity in the hobby makes it possible? So please vote and discuss your thoughts on the idea.

This is not created with the intent to bring up "for the money" type arguments or accusations.

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Re: When purchasing dart frogs how important is getting a fu

Postby Philsuma » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:10 pm

I think this thread / poll is helping to answer a question I saw posed somewhere else....

"Why does everyone assume that all people who have frogs, intend to try to breed them"

IMO:

1. Yes....the overwhelming majority of Dart Frog owners have hopes, aspirations and dreams of breeding their dart frogs.It's human nature to want to guide and nurture animals in your care towards this end.

2 It's not "overly hard" to breed most species, so there's your second clue. Somewhat easy to do = I'll do it !

3. It is also an easy way to recoup "hobby investment monies". This is a no brainer , in today's economy.

4. This may be the 'big one".....get ready for a shocker, folks. Some of the "mixer" crowd has been caught lying about their breeding efforts and have been discovered to have passed cross morph / designer frogs far across the country and into other parts of the hobby. That alone is reason enough for most of us to Assume that where breeding can take place - it most likely will be attempted.

1,2,3.....and 4.....there ya go.

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Re: When purchasing dart frogs how important is getting a fu

Postby DKOOISTRA » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:27 pm

While I always go for a pair, breeding is not that huge a deal for me. I enjoy them, if they breed sweet, bonus. If not, I don't lose sleep over it. I will say though that it makes me wonder what I'm doing wrong sometimes if they are not. As others have said breeding can be a sign of stress, or a sign that you'r doing it right. I dont know then that a pair not breeding means anything?
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Re: When purchasing dart frogs how important is getting a fu

Postby Azurel » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:55 pm

Phelsuma wrote:I think this thread / poll is helping to answer a question I saw posed somewhere else....

"Why does everyone assume that all people who have frogs, intend to try to breed them"

IMO:

1. Yes....the overwhelming majority of Dart Frog owners have hopes, aspirations and dreams of breeding their dart frogs.It's human nature to want to guide and nurture animals in your care towards this end.

2 It's not "overly hard" to breed most species, so there's your second clue. Somewhat easy to do = I'll do it !

3. It is also an easy way to recoup "hobby investment monies". This is a no brainer , in today's economy.

4. This may be the 'big one".....get ready for a shocker, folks. Some of the "mixer" crowd has been caught lying about their breeding efforts and have been discovered to have passed cross morph / designer frogs far across the country and into other parts of the hobby. That alone is reason enough for most of us to Assume that where breeding can take place - it most likely will be attempted.

1,2,3.....and 4.....there ya go.



That thread is one thing that kinda brought this to mind as well.....It was also just something I had wondered about as a whole I know for me in my other hobbies I always had an interest in breeding. It as a way to gain knowledge, but also in the chance that it could/can help reduce stress on the natural resources i.e. wild caught (fish, corals, inverts etc.) I am by no means a pure blood enviromentalist but do understand the thoughts behind reducing stressors on the natrual resources threw captive breeding and stand behind that thought process. I have bred sea horses, clownfish, cardinalfish. In reefing it was/is a serious undertaking to get those animals to breed if you can at all. The environment, water chemistry, food, feeding all have to intersect to get it right. Although in some cases it just happens and trying to reconstruct it always seemed to fail.

With dart frogs though it doesn't seem as tough in some of the species we have in the hobby since in reality they do most of the work unless we pull tads or eggs but that is something we choose to do, other wise for the most part we don't have to have a hand in it. Once I got into darts breeding really was on the back burner until I started to want to add more to the collection. So it them became a viable option and as it turns out the frogs agreed and haven't stopped. When I reefed I would sell coral frags to fund the hobby almost 100% either threw trades, fraging etc...The last 10 years of reefing I hardly had to come out of pocket for any supplies, corals/fish/inverts. Never did get any massive breeding program going requires a lot of time and energy...D3monic(Mike) can tell you as well.

So with agreed permission(wife) I started my frog lab down in the basement and have started to add to the collection... I don't see anything wrong what so ever to breed frogs to further ones own hobby and in the same breath spreading the fruits of the frogs and froggers labor.

But I wanted to see how specific or not we/some are in choosing the bloodlines of the frogs that we breed.
Last edited by Azurel on Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: When purchasing dart frogs how important is getting a fu

Postby RichFrye » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:58 pm

When my brother and myself started in the hobby most of the frogs we acquired only had one or two 'lines'. We wanted breeding , but also wanted the experience of actually raising dart frogs, not simply buying what someone spent a year or more raising for us. We wanted to watch the process on all levels, not just the adults courting. We bought or traded for no less than 6 froglets or juvis of any one locale to make sure we got breeding groups. Then we traded or sold adult extras. It seemed/seems important to get the full effect , if you care about the frogs and the hobby.

At Frog Day this year, and at events all through the country it seems those who want to concentrate on the business end simply bought and bragged about all the breeding pairs acquired. Look up who bought predominantly all breeders, then dig to see their business plan. It speaks volumes, especially about those who have been in the 'hobby' a very short period of time.

So, to answer the initial poll question. For some it's all about the business and snatching up all the proven breeders to sell offspring as fast as possible (business), and for some it''s all about the hobby. But most all want breeding on at least some level.
It's important , once again, to know who you are supporting by your sales and your purchases. I guess I could add yet another line to my sig.

You support the business, or you support the hobby. Rarely do they mix.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: When purchasing dart frogs how important is getting a fu

Postby Philsuma » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:01 pm

I see now....sorry I truncated your inital poll, but I do get the drift of your thoughts.

I'll put up a poll in a few weeks or so, dedicated to trying to gain insight on that.

In the meantime, this poll chips in a little with some insight....

polls-f63/poll-frog-pedigree-how-important-to-you-t4420.html

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Re: When purchasing dart frogs how important is getting a fu

Postby Azurel » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:50 pm

No worries....There was to many choices initally and I don't think that it would have been quite accurate. This way I think it will be closer in detail I think that the third choice does in some what incorporate that idea....

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Re: When purchasing dart frogs how important is getting a fu

Postby Tony » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:57 pm

I chose "somewhat important". I prefer to avoid sibling pairs whenever possible and having a mix of sexes makes it easier to find trades when the time comes.

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Re: When purchasing dart frogs how important is getting a fu

Postby Azurel » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:13 am

Tony wrote:I chose "somewhat important". I prefer to avoid sibling pairs whenever possible and having a mix of sexes makes it easier to find trades when the time comes.



I think that should be a hobby standard Tony, but I think the expense tends to make people just take the sibling route which is an understandable depending on thier economics although not preferable.

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Re: When purchasing dart frogs how important is getting a fu

Postby Azurel » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:19 am

RichFrye wrote:When my brother and myself started in the hobby most of the frogs we acquired only had one or two 'lines'. We wanted breeding , but also wanted the experience of actually raising dart frogs, not simply buying what someone spent a year or more raising for us. We wanted to watch the process on all levels, not just the adults courting. We bought or traded for no less than 6 froglets or juvis of any one locale to make sure we got breeding groups. Then we traded or sold adult extras. It seemed/seems important to get the full effect , if you care about the frogs and the hobby.

At Frog Day this year, and at events all through the country it seems those who want to concentrate on the business end simply bought and bragged about all the breeding pairs acquired. Look up who bought predominantly all breeders, then dig to see their business plan. It speaks volumes, especially about those who have been in the 'hobby' a very short period of time.

So, to answer the initial poll question. For some it's all about the business and snatching up all the proven breeders to sell offspring as fast as possible (business), and for some it''s all about the hobby. But most all want breeding on at least some level.
It's important , once again, to know who you are supporting by your sales and your purchases. I guess I could add yet another line to my sig.

You support the business, or you support the hobby. Rarely do they mix.



I kinda like the idea of getting young frogs letting them pick and choose the pairings. I mean yea buying a breeding pair is quick and expensive as well, to get breeding, but I really like the not knowing and finding a pair show themselves by finding surprise eggs, tads and or froglets. Seems a more well rounded approach to me. Like you said getting a breeding pair or only looking to buy a breeding pair can/could and does say something about the person I guess when you take a hard look at it.

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Re: When purchasing dart frogs how important is getting a fu

Postby RichFrye » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:23 am

Azurel wrote:
RichFrye wrote:When my brother and myself started in the hobby most of the frogs we acquired only had one or two 'lines'. We wanted breeding , but also wanted the experience of actually raising dart frogs, not simply buying what someone spent a year or more raising for us. We wanted to watch the process on all levels, not just the adults courting. We bought or traded for no less than 6 froglets or juvis of any one locale to make sure we got breeding groups. Then we traded or sold adult extras. It seemed/seems important to get the full effect , if you care about the frogs and the hobby.

At Frog Day this year, and at events all through the country it seems those who want to concentrate on the business end simply bought and bragged about all the breeding pairs acquired. Look up who bought predominantly all breeders, then dig to see their business plan. It speaks volumes, especially about those who have been in the 'hobby' a very short period of time.

So, to answer the initial poll question. For some it's all about the business and snatching up all the proven breeders to sell offspring as fast as possible (business), and for some it''s all about the hobby. But most all want breeding on at least some level.
It's important , once again, to know who you are supporting by your sales and your purchases. I guess I could add yet another line to my sig.

You support the business, or you support the hobby. Rarely do they mix.





...only looking to buy a breeding pair can/could and does say something about the person I guess when you take a hard look at it.



Not a pair James, ( I often sell pairs and trios) rather first and foremost searching out a bunch of breeders for the sole intent of pumping out offspring to sell ASAP. It's glaringly obvious , especially with people newish to the 'hobby' who only want to start a BUSINESS...puppy/froggie mill.



Rich
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476

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Re: When purchasing dart frogs how important is getting a fu

Postby Azurel » Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:10 am

Yea that was the intent of what I meant.....Just not precisely worded as you put it.

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Re: Purchasing dart frogs how important is getting a future

Postby Philsuma » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:47 pm

I think we may be getting some slightly skewed voting. People are reading some of the posts in this thread are thinking that it may be perceived by others as "bad" to try to place such high emphasis on getting a breeding pair.

I personally think that 90% of ALL hobbyists- old and new alike, try for sexual / breeding pairs. No shame at all , in that.

...keep it real.... 8)

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Re: Purchasing dart frogs how important is getting a future

Postby Azurel » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:59 am

Could be true Phil...... I think it is natural to want to have a breeding pair if one can get one as easy as they can be acquired in this hobby. Why wouldn't you want to see the dynamics of having frogs breed and all that comes with it(obligate/facultative egg feeders comes to mine). At Least for me that is the way I would and have gone for the most part. At least buying a group to eventually have a breeding pair....

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Re: Purchasing dart frogs how important is getting a future

Postby Kerickson978 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:54 pm

I chose somewhat important. i set up tanks with breeding in mind but dont usually make a big effort to get them to do so. one of the bigger things i am using breeding for is as replacement stock in case one of the adults dies or something and since that doesnt happen to often im not in the tanks pulling every egg or tadpole i find. i do it that way so i dont have to start all over looking for something that may or may not be available for months at a time if my current population croaks so to speak. and if ive got extra babies, sure i trade or sell them. the looks, sounds, and research is what keeps me interested.
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Re: Purchasing dart frogs how important is getting a future

Postby Stu&Shaz » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:30 pm

I am a new comer to darts and I absolutely want to breed them. For me this is partly a revision of my childhood, breeding our natives and trying to spread them around to new ponds that had arisen in peoples gardens. I am utterly fascinated by the miracle of a tadpole changing into a frog,my partner has actually never seen this.I would love to be able to source unrelated frogs that actually come from the same area(so were 100 % the same morph) but struggle immensely here in England,one of my first frogs has just started to breed...superblue auratus..nothing rare or fancy maybe but as far as i can find out there are around 10 here,so i guess my mission is to spread them about. My best efforts to trace them, lead me to believe they might have come from 4 pairs,where those 4 prs came from is where i reach a dead end. If i am truly lucky then those 4 pairs are not immediately related and unbelievable good fortune would be that my 3 frogs are not actually brothers or sisters,but none of this can be verified. So getting a future pair is incredibly important to us, but if we can only buy one frog and have to wait a year for the next partner to this to become available then we'll wait. But the breeding is not about money its about the hands on of watching little frogs develop, watching tads morph, and hopefully spreading the kids about.

Stu and Shaz

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Re: Poll - Dart Frogs - how important is getting a future pa

Postby RanaVenenosa » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:31 pm

I am getting back into the hobby - anyway, slowly building a small collection of frogs. I would like to end up w pairs or "groups" to enjoy the social dynamic of the frog. I enjoy watching and studying frogs much the same way I watched and cultivated my old reef tanks or the garden at my house. Cant forget building the viv, plant collecting, raising bugs - wife says i am a nerd! As some have said, if you are fortunate to get breeding activity with your pair, and can successfully rear them to froglets, then being able to sell them (assuming no hold backs) is added benefit that hopefully doesnt hurt the established breeders (supply/demand) too much (excluding the WC debate). For those who want instant gratification and the latest greatest - one of everything, I think the prob with having tons of cash and being able to buy up whatever you want will only lead to catastrophe and eventual burn out (in most cases). Like any hobby or interest, it takes time to master the skills and cultivate the patients to do well. If you move too quick, you may also cheat yourself of the true enjoyment. This is when the sincere enjoyment of nature and animal husbandry becomes over grown w greed and uncontrolled/undisciplined desires.... the frog becomes an object to be hoarded and exploited. This is prob the difference btw those who are about the hobby (even if they eventually make a hobby into a biz because they are ethical and good at what the do) versus those who are motivated primarily by $$$ and have more motivation about this as a "business" (as has been said earlier). For folks who have grown into the hobby and are able to make it a thriving responsible business (such as Understory, Saurian, Viv Concepts) they are to be applauded and supported by community. Without them the hobby would not be where it is at. What I find so great is these and many other quality breeders are so helpful and encouraging to newer folks who want to build collections with the potential to get "pairs" - i sense a confidence that they are not intimidated by others success since our being successful means they will continue to be successful (this definition of success includes gratification beyond just "making $$ to pay bills). All my opinions are my own and subject to the 80/20 rule. Dont have time to qualify every exception.

my 2 cents

Anyways, great thread
Scott - North Dallas

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Re: Poll - Dart Frogs - how important is getting a future pa

Postby Philsuma » Fri May 25, 2012 11:26 am

As you can see from the poll here....the Dart Frog Hobby is heavily interested in breeding (not ness a bad thing though).

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Re: Poll - Dart Frogs - how important is getting a future pa

Postby Chuck Lawson » Fri May 25, 2012 12:16 pm

Philsuma wrote:As you can see from the poll here....the Dart Frog Hobby is heavily interested in breeding (not ness a bad thing though).


fwiw... Unless you're acquiring dart frogs for decoration (or to make a quick buck), the fun is in observing them, and learning the art of keeping them properly. If you're not breeding them (or at least establishing opportunities for them to breed), then you're missing a lot of the interesting things to observe, and the opportunity to master a lot of the art.

As far as the business aspects go, if a hobby offers the opportunity to offset some of its own expenses (or to trade for other interesting species, etc.), by selling/trading offspring, related materials (plant cuttings, etc.) then that's great. For me though, I've never found anything that sucks the fun out of a hobby faster than trying to turn it into a business -- I want a hobby to take my mind off of work, not another job.

Just $0.02 from a newbie...


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