RO / Reverse Osmosis water = NOT for tads/eggs

All H2O issues. Reverse Osmosis (RO), Distilled, Rainwater, Tadpole tea, ect
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Philsuma
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RO / Reverse Osmosis water = NOT for tads/eggs

Postby Philsuma » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:06 am

Just seeing way too many people desirous of using the freshest of the fresh..the CLEANEST of the clean, the purest of the pure Water. And it's not only unnessa...it's KILLING THEM !

RO water is killing more tadpoles than the Atkins diet is killing fat people.

There is just no need to use RO or distilled water unless in an automatic misting machine or fogger. Use GROCERY water. Spring water. Holy geeze,who sold all these people on pure pure pure water ?

Many Distillation processes as well as Reverse Osmosis (RO), produce basically the same thing - very pure water, but use different techniques to produce it. Distilled water is a little more “pure” than RO. The Hobby concern is that this water is TOO pure, being stripped of all dissolved solids, which could cause problems with osmoregulation (the organisms ability to regulate water content). This is much more of a concern for the eggs and tadpoles though, as they cannot escape being placed in this water. Distilled and RO water are fine for misting a viv, but not suitable for eggs or tadpoles unless altered by added other substances.

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Re: RO / Reverse Osmosis water = NOT good.

Postby Eric Walker » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:20 am

My first breeding season in 2009 with theloderma asperum I used strickly ro water for my tads and out of over 50 tadpoles I only lost one or two Phil. They all morphed perfectly fine and healthy and went on to new homes without any problems I know of. I still have some of those frogs as my f1 breeders to this day. I do see how it could cause issues being void of any minerals but my experience with it in the past was just fine. I now add tannins to it though when using it.

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Re: RO / Reverse Osmosis water = NOT good.

Postby Philsuma » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:31 am

The tadpole does not exist in 'clean' water in situ, nor should we attempt to place it in 'clean/pure' water.

Won't it get 'parasites' and other nasties from 'bad' water ?

No

Won't it appreciate clean water and grow healthier ?

Nope

It's way past time to get out the husbandry whuppin stick on this issue. There is just too much of -bad information and incorrect use of RO water, becoming mainstream.

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Re: RO / Reverse Osmosis water = BAD

Postby RichFrye » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:18 am

Two things.
Rain water is essentially distilled water which may pick up tiny amounts of particles on the way down. But it starts as clean distilled water.
Many spring water producers distill their water before it is sold.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: RO / Reverse Osmosis water = BAD

Postby rcteem » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:48 am

Phil, I often use RO water and add Indian Almond leaves to it and they do great. I too have never seen any deaths that should say no RO water. Who is losing all of these frogs due to using RO water?

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Re: RO / Reverse Osmosis water = BAD

Postby frogs are cool » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:10 pm

It should say on the label how it was processed. I have seen many brands of spring water that use Distillation. I use distilled spring water in everything from my misting system to tad rearing jars and have never had anything negative to say about it.
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Re: RO / Reverse Osmosis water = BAD

Postby Philsuma » Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:49 pm

Spring water sold in grocery stores cannot be true 'distilled' water. Consumers would shit their pants uncontrollably if they were drinking distilled water.

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Re: RO / Reverse Osmosis water = BAD

Postby Philsuma » Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:51 pm

rcteem wrote:Phil, I often use RO water and add Indian Almond leaves to it and they do great. I too have never seen any deaths that should say no RO water. Who is losing all of these frogs due to using RO water?


The vast majority of people killing tads ect, are doing so with 100% RO and nothing else.....or RO and very little.

No offense Chris, but if you are only adding a slice of almond leaf to RO water and nothing else...I will not be getting frogs from you.

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Re: RO / Reverse Osmosis water = BAD

Postby goods » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:32 pm

Do you have some kind of data to back this up? To make a blanket statement that "RO = bad" or that it's the cause of the "vast majority" of tad deaths in the hobby, I would think you'd need some pretty strong evidence to back those claims up. I've used RO with a few live oak leaves or strands of sphagnum inside for tads from time to time and never have had any issues.
ZG

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Re: RO / Reverse Osmosis water = BAD

Postby Philsuma » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:03 pm

goods wrote:Do you have some kind of data to back this up? To make a blanket statement that "RO = bad" or that it's the cause of the "vast majority" of tad deaths in the hobby, I would think you'd need some pretty strong evidence to back those claims up. I've used RO with a few live oak leaves or strands of sphagnum inside for tads from time to time and never have had any issues.


Hi Zach,

The title is a bit inflammatory, but I feel that a strong counterpoint / argument needs to be made here. Like everything else I post, it's 100% opinion. There are only a couple people that post here with specialized degrees or fieldwork that I would considered as more scientific and it's my fervent hope that we get some posts from people who work with water quality ect to post here - either in support of RO...or against it. I'm not an expert and I'm really not ego driven here. I'd loved to be proven wrong or even have the 'hobby scales of experience' tip against me. Not a problem. I just feel very strongly here, that I want to get people talking and thinking and perhaps not having mortality issues.

I've been keeping Dart Frogs for @ nine years - 15 different species, obligates and non obligates. I've used all types of water and discussed water issues with many people over those 9 years. I have had personal communication with three different people that have used RO water and it's my opinion that the water directly caused or contributed to the mortality of their tadpoles.

One example that sticks in my mind was a family enjoying raising some tads, that had some small children. The kids were insistent that the tadpoles have 'clean' water each and every day to enjoy and 'drink'. The water was, as you can expect, crystal clear (RO) each and every day. The tadpole's tail kinked up and it soon looked shrunken. Not being a vet or scientist, I'm still going to believe that the RO water had interfered with the tadpole's ability to acquire and store calcium and other minerals.

Again, I have no papers or time to present 'internet proof'. I only wish to provide a place for a counter opinion, possible argument and discussion and see if anyone else would like to say or share anything.

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Re: RO / Reverse Osmosis water = BAD ?

Postby RichFrye » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:35 pm

Anecdotally , all of my misting, which fills all my tads film cans and the few broms I use have been filled with RO water , for the past 10+ years.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: RO / Reverse Osmosis water = BAD ?

Postby Philsuma » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:41 pm

RichFrye wrote:Anecdotally , all of my misting, which fills all my tads film cans a d the few broms I use have been filled with RO water , for the past 10+ years.



and again, it leaves all the dead ff and detritus ect in the cans and broms, so that the tadpole is not in 100% RO water and nothing else.

I've seen the film cans in your tanks Rich and they are all chock-o-block full of organic 'stuff - detritus, mulm, bioflim and all sorts of 'peanut butter' as Donn would say....so no 'RO worries there".

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Re: RO / Reverse Osmosis water = BAD ?

Postby goods » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:43 pm

Thanks for the clarification Phil.

I'm no fish scientist or aquatic ecologist, but I have taken a number of fish/aquatic science classes as requirements for my degree. The idea that RO water can "leach out" minerals, etc may be true to a point, but if it happens in RO water, then it will happen at least to a degree in other water sources as well. In nature, the body fluids of freshwater fish contain a greater amount of dissolved solutes than the surrounding water, so water will diffuse into the fish through osmosis. In order to minimize good solute loss, FW fish have specialized adaptations to their kidneys that allow beneficial ions to re-enter the bloodstream instead of being lost in the urine. Amphibian kidneys have similar structure and function.

With all that said, I think the biggest danger of straight RO water is the instability of its pH. With all the buffers being removed in the RO process, rapid pH swings are able to occur. This is where the tannic acid from leaf litter, sphag strands, etc. become important.

And just to add another suggestion as to why the tads in your example may have died...I think if you did water changes every day with any kind of water, the stress or potential for temp swings in new water, etc. may result in tad death.
ZG

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Re: RO / Reverse Osmosis water = BAD ?

Postby RichFrye » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:18 am

Philsuma wrote:
RichFrye wrote:Anecdotally , all of my misting, which fills all my tads film cans a d the few broms I use have been filled with RO water , for the past 10+ years.



and again, it leaves all the dead ff and detritus ect in the cans and broms, so that the tadpole is not in 100% RO water and nothing else.

I've seen the film cans in your tanks Rich and they are all chock-o-block full of organic 'stuff - detritus, mulm, bioflim and all sorts of 'peanut butter' as Ed S. would say....so no 'RO worries there".

Right, I like to keep it dirty and natural.
Btw, some people don't understand that it is the tad that decides when and where it goes off the mom's back.
I am quite sure that tad's decision is based on what it considers and needs as good quality water. The huge amount of cans I use makes for lot of options.
Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


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Re: RO / Reverse Osmosis water = BAD ?

Postby Philsuma » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:42 am

In trying to track down the genesis, or at least the start of the 'over-use' of 'PURE water", I harken back to my own days as a 'reefer' and RO water user.

Fish and aquarium water issues / balancing and controlling algae ect. Equilibrium achieved thru water additives, premade Salt mixtures in the case of reef tanks, ect.

Frogs, eggs and larvae and cutaneous absorption with no additives or no means to escape the confines of the water.

Two VERY important considerations here.

I think the Aquarium hobby has hurt us a bit here...continues to do so...

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Re: RO / Reverse Osmosis water = NOT for tads/eggs

Postby FrogOly » Wed May 13, 2015 12:57 pm

Long time lurker, seldomly opinionated. I worked in water treatment for almost 20 years. RO water varies depending on the hardness of the incoming water, condition of the filters, etc. That being said, there is nothing wrong with using RO water for tads, but plenty right. BUT, You have to add something first. Almond leaf, blackwater extract are preferable.
When adding leaf, it must sit for a day or two to mellow the water. As the water evaporates you can add straight RO water. The water concentrates tannins as it evaporates, and dilutes when you add more water. This is much like rain cycles in nature. You eliminate unnatural heavy metals, and chemicals using the cleaner water. You control what the water has added to it. The tannic water with a low pH, like many of the South American rivers just seems right imo.

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