As far as CB frogs being "stronger" (healthier) than WCs, it is the opposite, every person I know will provide medicine, fecals, and anything else possible to help an ailing frog, it may have been due to it just being a unhealthy frog to start, in the wild that frog would have died, and not contributed poor genes to the gene pool.
As for aboreus, and vincentei coming in, they will likely be part of a research program, and it is unlikely to see them in the pet trade in the near future.
The importers do not actually know what will come in, nobody even knows how long the imports will even last. They are hopeful of a few new morphs however.
INIBICO has been in the works for years, the organizers refuse to bribe gov't offcials, which has been the major hold up in getting their paper work approved. I wouldn't start saving money for any INIBICO shipments yet. Alot of info is available on
http://www.herpetologic.net.
Not sure what will happen Craig.
I pretty much agree with Jacob's input here though.
Rich
To answer some of Mikes questions, there would be no reason to cross breed different pums -they would be worthless. There is a wide variety of naturally occuring pums in the wild, the majority of them are seperated by some kind of physical barrier, a river, a mountain range, a bay, etc...
It takes a lot to get export papers from a country, and unless you are working for an institution you probably won't get any, theese pumilio are being exported on the pretense of them being captive bred in a greenhouse setting.
Pretty much any pumilio besides red/orange bastis, are rare in the hobby. Thus commanding a high price.
Geckguy,
I think it is probably correct that a frog from the wild is going to be healthy when caught. However I think the CB that have survived the less then natural setting of our vivs and have reproduced have to be tough and being raised in that environment makes them more likely to survive in a viv then a wild caught. Maybe I am wrong on this, what have other experienced?
Mike
Most froggers who have worked with WCs and CBs, of the same species, will agree that WCs breed "better".
Are WCs generally heathier because they are not constantly introduced (and re-introduced, and re-introduced) to parasites in a tiny cube, generation after generation, after generation, without getting a fecal done (much less getting the meds they need to clear the situation) and at least getting an idea of what is running through these frogs , far removed from the wild. Maybe.
I know, I know.......crazy check-up/fecal/med talk.
hock:
Rich,
So are WC Dart Frogs healthier over their entire lifetime, compared to CB ? It seems like it would be major stress to take one out of the wild.
Mike,
I tend to take a look at a few things when it comes to stress. One thing is posture. This can tell you when a frog is stressed or ill more times than anything else. If the frog hunches down a lot, cowers, has bad movement, ect., it is stressed and something is wrong.
Another would be lack of eating, something that is much easier to monitor in quarantine.
Red, runny poop is another thing to watch for.
I know a frog is happy when it is navigating a viv well without that "I better go to every nook and cranny , climb on all parts of the glass looking for an escape route " look on its face.
Most of my WCs are in very large enclosures
.
All of my wild caughts are doing well, but are they healthier than my CBs ? I'm not going to make that jump just yet.
Breeding better than some of my CBs, yeah.
Rich
Are your only wild caughts the bastimentos ? I'm about to get some for a trade. They are going into a 30 gallon viv.
Jace ,
The WCs are Nancies, Cayo de Aquas, Bri Bris, and Darklands. One Basti.
I would think that a 30 gallon viv should be good for one pair.
Rich
I just read what Rich wrote earlier about a frog being stressed and its posture. As soon as i read it I totally agreed. I never put 2 and 2 together but now that I think of it the frogs I have lost to what I consider stress acted the same way. Most of the frogs I am speaking of even were fat and healthy looking onlt bad posture. Sometimes no lights and lots of cover will help ive noticed.
Damon
This is a good thread and appropriate due to another recent importation of pumilio (smaller numbers than previous imports, to be sure).
Very sad to say we are in no better, and for those who care about proper husbandry management much WORSE shape now than we were six years ago with best guess Panama pums. Keep buying 'em people. Bravo.
Unfortunately....there are no other choices. Boycotting the importers that are "grabbing" any and all WC frogs is just not gonna happen. The pet stores will always be there to "pick up the slack" and buy the $35.00 pumilio when all else fails, and turn a nice profit.
The only option and "betterment" of the hobby at this point, is to slam and blast the importers that are the worst, and have the trash reputations - the Kingsnakers, flippers, and Vendors who show up at Reptile shows and can't even pronounce frog names let alone tell you anything about what they are pushing in their deli cups.
The bar can only be raised so high....slowly, it may seem.....but every little bit helps.
Poison Beauties Wrote:All Kingsnakers?
Michael
No...not all.
There are some good people who advertise on K.S, just like there are some good Vendors at Reptile shows and even some very good jobbers.
Philsuma Wrote:Unfortunately....THERE ARE NO OTHER CHOICES . Boycotting the importers that are "grabbing" any and all WC frogs is just not gonna happen. The pet stores will always be there to "pick up the slack" and buy the $35.00 pumilio when all else fails, and turn a nice profit.
The only option and "betterment" of the hobby at this point, is to slam and blast the importers that are the worst, and have the trash reputations - the Kingsnakers, flippers, and Vendors who show up at Reptile shows and can't even pronounce frog names let alone tell you anything about what they are pushing in their deli cups.
The bar can only be raised so high....slowly, it may seem.....but every little bit helps.
There are ALWAYS, ALWAYS choices Phil.
Lead by example and seek out locale specific frogs, shun others, always.
Right now the bar is lowered every single stinking year. And it's lowered by froggers who supposedly care about the hobby.
Rich,
Besides you, there is only 3-4 other guys in the U.S hobby that can even come close to claiming locale / site specific animals. That's simply not enough animals, and only a smattering of morphs too.
I am more than OK with recommending the businesses that I personally KNOW are head and shoulders above the other general importers, like:
1. Sean Stewart
2. Marcus Breece
3. Mark Pepper
ect.....
The "Cuts" and shunning that I propose are the importers, flippers and jobbers - like LLL , Regal Reptiles, 2-3 different importers in the SoFlorida area, a couple 20-30 year olds who are trying to be "big names" in the hobby without putting their time in. One guy getting Frogs from that Malasyian wholesaler. Those types.
Phil,
You are wrong , very wrong, on your numbers of people to get site specific pums from. And if a smattering of morphs is over a dozen, that's more than most pum keepers breed now...no?
And, one guy on your "heads above" list puts out the most diseased frogs I have ever had the dis-pleasure of ever doing necropies on...
I'm out on this topic. Everyone knows where I stand. But I end on the note that if you look , you'll find a decent amount of dart froggers who breed site specific pums. But you'd need to work at it a little. And...they do tend to cost a little more. Like any pedagreed animals.
Why leave the discussion ? I didn't offend you did I ?
Who are the other breeders? I've been in the Hobby for long enough to consider myself fairly well in tune with, who-is-who, especially here on the East Coast. You may be the only hobbyist that regularly advertises site specific animals.
Can these other site specific breeders provide proof of their animals aquisition and lineage ?
Philsuma Wrote:Why leave the discussion ? I didn't offend you did I ?
Who are the other breeders? I've been in the Hobby for long enough to consider myself fairly well in tune with, who-is-who, especially here on the East Coast. You may be the only hobbyist that regularly advertises site specific animals.
Can these other site specific breeders provide proof of their animals aquisition and lineage ?
If I had to rely on those who advertise, rather than finding those who have what I'm interested in, I'd not have a collection...
I'm not outing anyone or their sourses with people like Richard Lynch and friends/partners around to inform to our government officials.
I'm out because I've pretty much said what I had to say. No offence taken or given .
