I've been keeping two Luec's for about 4 to 5 weeks now. I had them tested and based upon the fecal results was treating with Panacur for hooks. Both frogs looked and acted good (even up until this morning) until just now when I went to switch them to a new QT tank and do another treatment. I found one under a leaf completely listless and when I picked him up (with nitrile gloves washed with RO water) his back legs went straight and he couldn't move any more. They have both been in this QT tank for a little over a week.
He was still barely breathing so I applied some benzocaine to euthanize him. The other one seems a bit listless and doesn't want to eat...looks like he might be in danger as well.
I'm not really sure what to do. The temps have been fine ... habitat at approximately 72 - 76F during the day, and maybe 4 degree cooler at night. I've been misting the enclosure daily and it's always damp.
Should I get a necropsy? It seems so sudden, what could I have done wrong?
Gahh, the whole family is crying,.. we love that little frog,...
Doug
First of all I am sorry for your loss, definately sucks to lose a frog.
I have some questions for you.
How often were you treating? Should be treat once a week for 4 weeks and day after treatment move them to a new sanatized QT. did the fecals show high loads of hook worms? Also they need ffy's with supplements in between treatments. How old are the frogs?
#1 - These things happen. Losing frog(s) happens to ALL of us, experienced people too. I know people can take it hard, and we don't want to totally look at these exquisite animals as cheap or disposable, but.....there will be other frogs.
2. Were these CB or WC Leucomelas. I would think them to be CB, as WC animals of that species are only rarely imported lately.
3. If they were CB, who did the fecals and what was the exact diagnosis ? Hookworms - eggs and all stages of the parasite can present in any of three categories; Low levels, moderate or heavy.
4. What was your supplement regime ?
5. You mentioned R.O water...what kind of water - spraying and soaking were you using ?
6. How long have you had the frogs?
7. Pics of the enclosure and anything else, can be extremely helpful in all cases.
8. Not so sure I'd pay big $$ for a necropsy unless I had a large collection or other factors.
be sure to throw out all inexpensive cage items and sanitize everything with multiple 05% bleaches followed by rinses.
You still have one frog ? Def get it into a new/clean enclosure.
All good Q's.
The fecals done by Dr Frye showed moderate hook load. I was treating with Panacur weekly and moving to new QT afterward. I am dusting the FFs with vitamins. Not sure how old they were; got them from Josh's. So, CB for sure not WC.
Using RO water for spraying the enclosure.
Moved the survivor into the new QT tank...
It was just so sudden, hopping around this morning just fine and this afternoon ,.. out...
The other seems to have perked up a bit. Not sure what is going on...
Doug
Hi Doug,
Could be several things. Remember that a Vet only sees what you send when doing fecals.
If a heavy load there is a chance of internal damage and or makes them more suceptable to stress.
Either way I would have proceeded the treating for hooks. Maybe Josh will replace the frog.
Again sorry for your loss.
I wouldn't be so quick to name the Hookworms as the main, or even sole,cause of death. Wasting, possible bloody stool and general downward spiral can most times, be observed - it's just that apparent. But your frog died quickly, so that tells me something possibly different. It wasn't getting thinner and thinner, correct ?
Still treating the remaining frog for hooks.
Frogs were eating well, looked like they were getting maybe a little fat. No bloody stool. Very active and acclimated. Came out all the time to see if food was to be given.
The only thing I can think of is somehow given the changing winter conditions it got too hot and too dry. I don't have any misting automation in that QT tank. I was misting twice or more a day and checking temps. It would have been strange to get too hot in the afternoon since our heater was not running much...IDK...I could see moisture on the paper towel substrate.
I had not touched anything in that tank in a couple of days since the last feeding so I don't believe it was due to any chemical being introduced. Everyone is under strict orders to use no chemicals in that room. I use fresh nitrile gloves washed in RO water every time I am in the tank and to transfer frogs so I follow a pretty strict routine in that respect.
I kept the previous tank in the state that I found it when I found the non-responsive frog. I'm going to investigate tonight to see if anything is apparent.
Is there anything, other than bloody stool, that I should look for?
And thanks everyone for your support. I really like these beautiful animals; I'm used to Amphibs and lizards but not as delicate as these. Knowing that I have been as careful as I can. I have a beautiful viv waiting once we are past the hooks infection.
I also wonder if I should just stay with this one frog for now and not get anymore until I see this one survive for some time.
Once I saw this frog was in bad shape I misted him immediately and let him sit for a few minutes. Unfortunately I do not have any amphib ringers so I used the RO water. He did not respond and seem to get worse and his legs spasmed straight out when I picked him up to inspect. His mouth was wide open but he was still breathing. He seemed thin and drawn but did not look that way in the morning although with his legs out-stretched they look thinner anyway. Somehow dessicated?
Sorry about the long winded emails about one frog but as I mentioned we were all actually crying over this especially my 9 year old daughter. And I HATED euthanizing him but he was clearly suffering. I hope the topically applied bezocaine was the right thing to do in that respect.
Anyway, thanks again everyone.
One thing . If the frog has enough humidity (and a sealed container with even a small amount of water in it should have plenty of humidity) then misting water directly on the frog is not only unneeded but it had add stress to the frog. The water temp and the temp of the frog in the container are almost certainly at least somewhat different and can cause a shock to the system.
Also, frogs can have hookworms and not show many signs at all right before death. Some organs may not be effected at all while other are slowly being consumed. Not all vital organ failures show a wasting effect. Nervous systems would be one example.
I would also eschew using RO water, especially directly on an animal. I would use 'Grocery Store Spring Water' only.
Can you post pics of both the frog and the two different enclosures. That would help.
let's also not discount the panacur. If they dosage is too high, mortality can quickly occur.
Philsuma Wrote:let's also not discount the panacur. If they dosage is too high, mortality can quickly occur.
Discounting is one thing, understanding that there has never been a proven Panacur death by dusting with FFs is however something to understand.
In the two cases where Dr. Wright had noted any Panacur OD (
two cases, in decades) both were from prying open mouths and dumping meds down the gullet. One ingested 20 times the recommended dose and I forget the guessed volume ingested in the second.
People can die of drinking too much water too, but that's not an often occurrence at all either...
In fact, there have been way more reported deaths from OD of vitamin A than with Panacur.
dusting w/ vitamins is good, how about calcium dust with d3? Were you using that also?
So the regime for feeding ( I have a schedule) 1 day / week panacur, 1 day/week vitamins, 1 day/week calcium and skip a feeding 1 day to make 7 days, So Mon/Wed/Fri skip sat sun,.. although I did drop FF's in at least one Sunday...
Mist in the morning and at night heavily with RO (got spring water today and will change to that).
Transfer between 2 QT tanks that are cleaned in bleach, rinsed THROUGHLY like 10 times, and dried overnight.
Each tank has paper towel substrate and 4 - 6 magnolia leafs for hides. Each tank has 1 piece of banana replaced every other day to keep FF's in.
Here's photo's of the two QT tanks:
https://plus.google.com/photos/10085195 ... 2040293233
I assure you that I have scrubbed the crap out of the these two tanks. When occupied the tanks are in the middle of the house where the temperature is the most constant and away from doors and windows that are opened. I use parchment paper on the top with holes punched in to help keep moisture in. This room is also away from all the other animals (various lizards and frogs).
The fatality occurred in the larger tank just before being transferred to the smaller tank. Both tank temps test in the 70's (about 75F) all the time and the humidity is pretty high. Just to be clear, the fatality did not happen right after move to a new tank but from the old tank that both were in for almost a week.
I'm really bummed, I've been more strict with the care of these two than probably all my other menagerie put together...
Doug-I am so sorry for your loss! I know what you mean about the frogs being so much a part of your family! The one thing I would mention, off the top of my head, is the leaf litter/plants. I think you would be better off with more leaf litter. It's just a QT tank, so of course you don't have thick plantings, but a lot more leaf litter would be helpful for the frogs. A thick layer--an inch or two-of leaf litter would be much better for the frogs, to have a sense of safety. Maybe give your remaining frog a bunch more leaf litter and see how she/he does.
Not sure if I got this right, you only dust w/ calcium 1 day a week? Does it contain d3? You should be dusting about 3-4 x a week w/ calcium w/ d3. You could've been witnessing seizures due to lack of enough calcium uptake.
dscrimager Wrote:So the regime for feeding ( I have a schedule) 1 day / week panacur, 1 day/week vitamins, 1 day/week calcium and skip a feeding 1 day to make 7 days, So Mon/Wed/Fri skip sat sun,.. although I did drop FF's in at least one Sunday...
Mist in the morning and at night heavily with RO (got spring water today and will change to that).
Transfer between 2 QT tanks that are cleaned in bleach, rinsed THROUGHLY like 10 times, and dried overnight.
Each tank has paper towel substrate and 4 - 6 magnolia leafs for hides. Each tank has 1 piece of banana replaced every other day to keep FF's in.
Here's photo's of the two QT tanks:
https://plus.google.com/photos/10085195 ... 2040293233
I assure you that I have scrubbed the crap out of the these two tanks. When occupied the tanks are in the middle of the house where the temperature is the most constant and away from doors and windows that are opened. I use parchment paper on the top with holes punched in to help keep moisture in. This room is also away from all the other animals (various lizards and frogs).
The fatality occurred in the larger tank just before being transferred to the smaller tank. Both tank temps test in the 70's (about 75F) all the time and the humidity is pretty high. Just to be clear, the fatality did not happen right after move to a new tank but from the old tank that both were in for almost a week.
I'm really bummed, I've been more strict with the care of these two than probably all my other menagerie put together...
Yes, indeed it was once a week for the Cal/D3
So let me see if I got this right. I should change to feeding almost every day something like this:
Monday - panacur until treatment works
Tuesday - FF dusted Cal/D3
Wednesday - FF dusted vitamins
Thursday - skip
Friday - FF dusted Cal/D3
Saturday - FF
Sunday - FF dusted Cal/D3
Is that about right?
I feed 4-6 days a week and dust w/ vits half the time and calcium the other half(generally)(juvis generally fed daily). If they are deficient I'd dust w/ both every feeding for a week and then alternate for a while. After they are grown and settled you can go back to dusting once or twice a week each unless they are breeding. I try not to afford strict schedules because if your over doing it or under doing it consistently it could lead to problems more easily(my opinion). Varied diet is also good.
Well I actually weigh the FF's with the dusted load and try to get a consistant amount of FF's before dusting. I'm pretty anal about that. So, I feed about 20 FFs per frog except for the day after the skip day where I do about 30 per frog.
I lay them out in front of each frog if I can. I have a gram accurate scale (although not laboratory grade) that I use a lot.
At least this is what I was doing.
I'm not one to argue with a successful breeder howver I beleive in strict schedules. I do also add in springs and Amphipods...
Doug
There are more than one way that works. No argument, just giving my take on it. Best of luck.
aaronsfrogfarm Wrote:There are more than one way that works. No argument, just giving my take on it. Best of luck.
The reason everyone does something different as far as amount of food, type of food and amount and type of supplements is that nobody knows exactly what our darts need in exactly what ratio or what time-frame. And there is no 100% effective way to get our supplements to our frogs, excepting prying open their mouths and dumping dust down . The dumping dust would work for the frogs which get used to that kind of stress, but then we'd have to have 100% conclusive dart frog studies to understand what each species needs exactly...
We are all guessing to an extent. Sort of like how some people take one multi-vit, others two. Some will take one aspirin for a head ache , some three. Except we have a much greater idea of how much human drug we need or can handle.
Aaron feeds and dusts WAY more often than I do, yet it works fine for him. And my less often dusting and feeding works just fine for me.
I have a feeling there are many less dust (or lack of dust) related deaths than thought when vits and calcium are being used regularly. Especially since the guys who have been using brand 'x' solely and the other guys using just brand 'y' and the nuts from EU that only have ever used brand 'z' all have success keeping and breeding darts for decades now, and some of these crazy non-rotators/guys who stick with what's worked for them forever don't plan on reinventing the already round wheel.
I think it would be very insightful to , from a ten year old viv, take all the plant life, substrate and anything else in-viv where even the tiniest fauna may live , analyze the content then come back to what we think we need to be topping our FF with. I've read that the cultured bug-stuff we use in our vivs does not wholly supply our darts nutritional needs, and I can see that. But what about the thousands of potential hitch -hikers?