Hello Everyone,
First a big thanks to the entire community here - what a great bunch of people. The last 6 months my eldest daughter and I have greatly enjoyed learning about dart frogs and piece by piece building our knowledge and ultimately our Vivarium. Much of the learning has been from right here at Dart Den. The results is below
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2 weeks ago we finally purchased 5 x d. leucs to add to the tank. Four out of the five have flourished - fat boys (and hopefully some girls) indeed! However, the 5th is really struggling - it became apparent tonight that he is unable to get fruit flys into his mouth. He is still very active and will jump around madly chasing them but is extremely uncoordinated. It is painful to watch 5,6,7 attempts and the fly ends up walking over the end of the leaf and escapes. I have read the various threads addressing similar symptoms and understand the consensus is likely nutrient deficiency. He is very thin at this point, my question is there any way to get/help a frog to eat in this condition? Here are as many facts as I can think of.
Viv Size : 44 gal
Frogs Sources : Joshs Frogs (No further line information available)
Age : Approximately 4-5months.
Temp 70 Morning, 77 Evening
Humidty greater than 90%
Feed - Melanogastor - dusted with a combination of calcium/Vitamin power. Feeding daily. Also have a Heidi culture that we occasionally supplement with, dusted also. Use a single piece of fruit as a feeding station in the center of the tank.
Misting : RO water, was misting on auto 4-5 times per day. I see water is building up in Hydroton so have backed back to once a day and humidity still above 90%.
lighting : Not 100% sure I converted and old fish tank and used the same light.
My thought is that if 4 out of 5 are doing well this may be more a frog specific item. However open for any and all suggestions. Particularly any specific action i can take to save this little guy.
Thank you all in advance
James
Those are relatively young to put into a larger viv...I would definitely suggest setting up a small growout for the skinny one: simple substrate (sphag or paper towels), a couple of mag leaves as hides and a clipping of pothos or philodendron. As a last resort, a buddy who wholesales wc imports dissolves calcium and vits in spring water and soaks the frogs in that...not a perfect solution, but it may help (do this at your own risk...).
#1 - when seeing a feeding, locomotion issue... separate the frog with the problem immediately. Give him lots of leaf litter and feed small numbers of dusted flies but more often. A feeding station could be good here too. Try to take a plastic spoon or similar and collect maggots to place on the feeding banana or in a small plastic lid. I'd use grocery store 'spring water' to mist him and not R.O water, in this case.
It's hard to tell from the viv, but if you want to be sure of humidity and 90% of ALL mechanical and 80% of ALL digital humidity gauges are complete crap.....best to make sure there is 'condensation' or some degree of spray lasing on the glass sides. If you spray and mist what you feel is 'alot' but never see the residual water....then go heavier. When in doubt....mist MORE.
Leaf litter, leaf litter, leaf litter. almost every single species dart frog absolutely NEEDS a decent layer or two of clean, magnolia leaves. Especially with groups of frogs - they should definitely have a good 2 layers of large 'pringle chip' type leaf litter.
Temps are 'ok' but it wouldn't hurt to increase by @ 3-5 degrees if possible and convenient - ambient heating and not a hot rock or spot light, is best.
additional close up pics - more of the enclosure and frogs would really help as well.
Keep us posted.
and THANK YOU for the kind words about this site and our members. We all appreciate hearing that, I can tell you !!
We are pullin' for your frog James. Keep us posted.
Thanks to both of you for the quick responses. I will get the frog separated out first up in the morning. I have the lights off on the viv right now so wont disturb anything for additional photo's. Once I am up and running tomorrow will post some pics. Points taken and understood on humidity, leaf litter and temps.
Much Appreciated.
Hi James,
unfortunately it sounds as if your frog may have STS. If it is Short Tongue Syndrom I am not sure there's much that can be done.
When 4 out of five siblings or froglets which were raised in the exact same environment and ate the exact same food end up wonderful and one lone froglet ends up with a syndrome such as STS I am doubtful if is solely and simply a nutritional factor. Rather a possible mix of of factors triggered by one, compounded by one or more than one other factor.
Morning All,
Rich thank you for the comment. I have proceeded with the grow out take with the understanding that if it is STS there may be little we can do. Here are a few pictures of the grow out tank. Sorry I know the quality it not great.
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- basically 5 gallon plastic tub
- added wet (very wet) paper towel
- leaf litter
- cleaned potho that i purchased this morning
- small saucer with orange piece for feeding station
The frog was in such a bad way this morning I did try the vit/calcium bath. Since then i have added dusted maggots and a few dusted flies. It appears some of the maggots are gone but not 100% sure. i have not observed him eating, however, am trying not stick my head in every 5 minutes. Still has energy he is chasing flies so I have hope.
Just for reference he is 1/3 of the size of his four tank mates.
Lets see.
James
Have been placing 2-3 dusted flies next to frog every few hours. Just watched one fly that was stuck on a wet leaf (surface tension of the water held him in the same spot). The fly kept trying to move so had frogs attention. Frog must have tried 10-15 times to get stationary fly and could not. The frog was "lined up" on the fly but just not getting it. For example if you drew an imaginary line from vent to nose and then continued the line out in front of the frog the line would have intersected the fly.
Just for reference these are a few pictures of my healthy frogs in the other tank.
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Well...the good news is that it looks like it is not too thin yet, so you have a little time.
Sometimes frogs that are destined in the wild to be culled or predated, simply don't make it for various reasons and that's quite natural. We hobbyists have a tendency to pity them and try to help them along -again, very natural and nothing wrong with that sentiment. But be aware, some frogs are destined to not make it no matter what, so try yo keep an 'even keel' on this one, if you can.
It does indeed appear to have STS, or short tongue syndrome, like Rich says. It just doesn't have the 'full length' or perhaps the stickiness to effectively catch flies. I've had a couple tincs that had this and with diligence, it can be reversed or perhaps mitigated.
You can try to obtain liquid Calcium Gultonate (I'll bump the medications thread here for ya) and it's usually found in $30.00 full strength plastic bottles at agriculture or farm stores for treating horses, cows and other large livestock. You must further water it down to only 15 -20% - 1-2 parts Ca to 8 parts water, and then you can drop some liquid on the frogs back periodically.
As always, I'm not a Vet and this post is what I personally would do and not carte blanche medical advice. Always seek the advice of a Veterinarian that is confident with exotic animals and amphibians with any or all issues, questions and problems.
Thanks for the input much appreciated. Will let you all know how it pans out.
Sad news after several weeks of treatment the little guy passed. This happened back in November. Other 4 are doing great, getting bigger e=seemingly every day.
Again appreciate all the help.
Calcium Gluconate Calcium Gluconate is a mineral supplement. It is the form of calcium most widely used in the treatment of hypocalcemia. Calcium Gluconate contains 9.3% calcium. It is also used to counteract an overdose of magnesium sulfate, excess magnesium sulfate can cause respiratory depression, for which calcium Guconate would be the antidote. Use in the tropical frog hobby to counteract seizures, mainly in WC pumilio or frogs that have recent poor captive diets with low calcium levels.
This product can be purchased on eBay (be careful of freshness) as well as local "Agriculture stores" - for horses and farm animals.
Be aware of the sealed liquid bottle and try to obtain a product that is LESS than a year old. It's moderately expensive for it's size and comes in larger 6-8 oz bottles.
It also needs to be WATERED DOWN / diluted to @ 10%. And can be applied as a soak or dropped on the animal dorsally.
As always..I'm not a Vet and the above advice is not medical advice