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Prophylactic Treatment of Dart Frogs in the U.S Hobby
#1

Hi Rich,

Not speaking for DB or kyle at all here. However I am one of several that brought up this as being a conflict of interest. I spoke to the counsel(whom i also helped get into the hobby) at the hospital i work for and i just posted what he said. I also said i didn't question your or your brothers integrity just the way the courts are these days it isn't a good idea. The fact is what one vet considers to be ok in a fecal is what another wont.

I do have a problem with treating the frogs prophylactically. We are currently still having a problem with bacteria in humans building up resistance and with horses having problems with parasites that have built up resistances.

Sean Myers
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#2

Hi Sean,

I don't wish to get into another debate on prophylactic treatment .That discussion has been beaten to death over the past few years and you will still notice that just about every vet you talk to will tell you to prophylactic worm your dog for heartworms, as well as many other animals prophylactically. There are tons of different frog wormers to choose from if tolerance becomes an issue. Again beaten to death and not part of the topic at hand. if you would like to start a whole new thread on worming and parasites that would be fine with me but the issue is getting a tad boring for me at this point.
There could be no conflict of interest if I am not selling frogs ( and should not be if I were) .If a vendor can not explain the health situation of his or her frogs , in my mind he or she has no right selling them at IAD who's goal is "maintaining a reputation for offering only the highest quality animals". Lots of frogs have small doses of parasite that can be cured or treated. Vendors should only worry if they have something very bad to hide. I suppose some vendors do as I have bought and traded a lot of frogs from a lot of vendors over the past few years. Maybe they should start looking at themselves. I am afraid that the "good ol' boys " saying of "if it aint broke , don't fix it" is not valid anymore. Their frogs are broke and customers are finding this to be true.

Take care,
Rich

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#3

Hi Sean,

I would like to add one last thing to my response.

If you read any of my brother's posts or mine you will never find one that tells anyone to treat prohylactically . Never.
My brother and I have posted what we do and have done with our frogs as information, not a rule of what everyone must do. I have personally been prohylactically treating less and less because of the test results I have been getting from my collection - Very happy with them in general.

This is my mantra : Quarantine, Test, Decide what to do after you get the results from an experienced professional.

To treat, or Prophylactically treat, is totally up to the owner of the animal.

Rich

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
Reply
#4

Rich,

I don't know why you are trying to drag me into your little debate. My post on Dendroboard has nothing to do with the merits of medical tests at IAD which in fact I think is a good idea. I was commenting on the frustrations people were voicing about complications in making that happen this year.

The second part was a reference once again to comments that 'hard feelings' had occurred as a result of the situation. I'm like whatever, people need to grow up and not treat every little problem as if it's some major life crisis. Why every perceived slight, insult, disagreement has to become a major fight is beyond me. Hence my comment that 'god what a tedious bunch of nothing' was a good way of viewing all the back biting and name calling...it had nothing to do the merits of fecal testing at IAD or any other venue. I just lifted it from another's post on Frognet anyway so I can't claim invention there.

I've attached my complete comment from the DB and people can draw their own conclusions. Two parts to it. The first dealing with sympathizing with Ed as he leads the group through the 'dreary' reality of legal obligations, business responsibilities etc. and the second focused on why people were getting so easily upset.

Personally I don't know you or your brother nor do I have a problem with either one of you. That won't change regardless of whether what I posted on DB striking you the wrong way. It seems in particular that your brother does some pretty good work from what I can tell based on others' comments. How could I possibly take issue with anything that leads to better frog health and well being? That doesn't make sense. I'd actually like to talk 'shop' with him about choice of medications, therapeutic regimens, etc....maybe I'll make it up to one of the Michigan meetings later this year.

As for past history between you and others on DB, before my time and not my problem. I get along with everyone whether they like it or not :lol: If I give some people a hard time...well let's just say I'm trying to encourage them to raise their sights and keep their eye on the ball as opposed to wallowing around in the gutter.

I am pretty passionate about dart frogs, the hobby in general and more importantly what their native ecosystem means to all of us. I do keep things in perspective though and wonder why individuals get so emotionally caught up in their interpersonal battles with others that it deflects attention from the real issues. But at the end of the day that is their business and their call as to how they chose to spend their time and energy. Personally I spent most of my day today reviewing some pretty exciting clinical data for an experimental cancer drug and looking at options at how it could be sped to market. So I'm in a very good mood tonight. That's the sort of thing that gets me all fired up and passionate. Not arguing through a string of emails about who insulted who back in the dark ages of Dendroboard. I guess it's all about priorities.

So best regards and I'm sure we'll cross paths if not at IAD this year then perhaps MWFF. Who knows, by that time you might even want to shake my hand...anything is possible :wink:

Bill

elmoisfive Wrote:Ehhhh poor Ed seems to always bear the brunt of being the voice that has to remind people that there are legal regulations, business relationships (like hey maybe the hotel might not be too wild about the idea, etc.) and so on to deal with....and then gets little love for reminding people about the real world.

Well yeah like it or not, how the law treats animal poop in an animal cage and how it treats it if it is processed through some kind of medical test are two worlds apart. Kind of like the difference between you flushing your business down the toilet versus having a stool sample analyzed by your doctor. There's a reason for that sort of distinction but you aren't going to convince people who want to simplify the situation as 'poop is poop'.

Keep on fighting the good fight Ed.

As for people getting their nose out of joint about the fact that someone typed a hasty response that landed poorly or that instant gratification was not achieved, well adults just deal with this kind of sh*t without having tantrums or bearing a grudge that they wear like some kind of battle scar and reminding you how they were wronged in the great battle of whatever.

My favorite quote from Frognet today....I'll have to keep this one handy...

"God, what a tedious bunch of nothing"

That pretty much sums it up as it pertains to the second part.

Bill
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#5

Rich,

If it was ever my intention to attack you, your brother or any other person it would be clear, direct and obvious. But I have no reason to attack anyone so why should I?

I do try at times to remind all parties involved to rise above their differences for the betterment of both the hobby and themselves. Perhaps that comes across the wrong way but I see no reason why personalities and past problems should get in the way of what is best for the frogs, the hobby, the field and perhaps life in general.

I’m a bit hardcore in that regard but in my real life (read professional life) I work with people that I personally don’t like and visa-versa…okay to be honest in a few cases it goes beyond dislike. But ya know, we’ve buried the hatchet and work together because we are saving people’s lives…so whether I like them or agree/disagree with them is totally irrelevant…sucks I guess from a swallowing pride perspective but damn it there are some people walking the planet today, holding their children in their arms, loving their partner and enjoying life because I and some other person(s) who had problems getting along decided that our differences were bullshit compared to what really mattered. I can live with that situation…I really can.

My comment and my challenge on the DB was not aimed at any one person/group or assigning blame/fault. So in response to whether I was trying to bash, attack, get a rise from or upset you and/or your brother, the answer is no….that is counterproductive anyway. My comment about instant gratification was aimed at my perception (perhaps incorrectly) that there were some who chose to view the initial IAD responses (channeled via Scott and Ed) in particular as being ‘blocking’ as opposed to enabling (and there were many). The post on DB about fecals at IAD is pretty self evident in that regard. I don’t get over analytical about parsing every word and trying to guess what a person is really saying but the overall gist was ‘why isn’t poop just poop?’ and ‘hard feelings have arisen over people being unhelpful and confrontational’.

I like to give Ed grief at times but he is trying to find solutions without fuzzing over the challenges. So while I’ll tweak him at times for being so serious the guy is A-one in my book for trying to do the right thing in the right way.

What I do try to do at times is to remind people is that life is short and there are bigger issues involved than personal dislikes and past grudges….if people want to give me shit for asking them to be adults so be it. At times I lose my patience with situations and lord knows I’m far from perfect. But I pick myself up, dust myself off and keep my eye on the prize.

Perhaps I use my own personal experiences as a guide….today my closest collaborator and ally in my professional life was in years past a bitter personal enemy….we swore we would ‘destroy’ each other. Much worse than any of the dreck I’ve seen to date in the frog hobby. Refused to work with each other, were constantly reminding each other and everyone else of how the other person had wronged us, was wrong headed, blah blah blah. I still remember the day when a fellow employee, a young lady who had a lifelong incurable disease asked me why “our pride and our stubbornness was more important than her need and the needs of all the others we proclaimed we were so passionate about helping” Once I managed to overcome my anger at being verbally spanked by this person…well needless to say I did not feel particularly proud of myself on that day.

So I sucked it up and went to that person and told him that what was in the past was going to stay there and he had my pledge that I would do whatever was in my power to help him. I apologized, for all the hurt, mistrust and most importantly asked for his forgiveness. Man that hurt, even today more than 10 years after that day, writing about it is a very intense emotional experience.

My colleague’s initial response was not encouraging….suspicion, lack of acknowledgement that I had held out my hand….he later told me that his thoughts at that moment was ’what kind of devious scheme was I plotting’. But he thought about what I said and came back and had an honest heart to heart about our ‘little’ problem and gave me the same promise and apology. No easier for him and in some ways perhaps more difficult.

Now our frogs can’t talk to us like that young patient did but if they could I wonder what they would say? I do wonder.

I don’t normally talk about this kind of stuff on a frog forum but what the heck, this is an off topic part of the board plus I figured I might as well just put it out there since it helps explain where I am coming from. People can choose to ignore it, mock it, question it or perhaps maybe even give what I’m saying some thought. I’m fine with that….my sense of self worth isn’t tied up in what people on Dendroboard, Dartden and Frognet think or say about me….It’s tied up in things like the fact that the young patient who shamed me all those years ago is still alive today and living a quality life. She may feel that she is the one who was given a gift but in reality, I am the one who received the most valuable prize.

Bill
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#6

Bill,
Thanks for the heartfelt reply. I believe that you meant no bad intentions and apologize for coming down hard on you.
I sometimes go off the deep end because in the past a very few people in the hobby have chose to do their dirty work behind doors or on boards I do not or will not post on. It makes things quite frustrating when this happens in my business and what I also consider my hobby. This is a 24 hour a day business and I think sometimes people don't realize that this is my only business. I am quite sure it would not go over too well if I entered these few froggers' workplaces and pulled a few of the stunts that have been perpetrated on my brother and myself in the last few years. Again, their are only a very small few people in the hobby we have any issue with at all, but we are both extremely passionate guys who dive deep, headfirst , and full force into defending what we believe to be right and true. There has never to my knowledge been any issue or conflict where either of us were not more than willing to try to work things out. Not too many issues, and the vast majority of those have been solved. There are still a few froggers out there we have issue with and you can't please all of the people all of the time. This is most certainly not a perfect world . I don't see it becoming one any time soon and for the few froggers we still have issues with , I don't see this changing any time soon either.
As to the issue with Kyle. If he would like to contact me in private I am willing to talk about things. I know I have come down very hard and childishly many times towards him. One of my many faults. I am tenacious. Sometimes this is good , sometimes bad. It may be a good thing I am my own boss and not forced to work with those I don't care to.
Thanks again Bill I appreciate the time and thought.
Rich

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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#7

Rich,

Thanks for your response in turn. I personally think that a discussion between you and Kyle would be helpful. I do not believe that a frog hobby divided is a good thing. How rapidly the question on Frognet on the possibility of performing fecals at IAD degenerated into a shouting match is diagnostic of that division. I agree that we do not live in a perfect world and total harmony is likely not achievable. But I would like to think that honest, passionate people, united by their interest and their passion for dart frogs can find a way to work together.

Maybe not agree on everything, perhaps not even liking each other on a personal basis…but working together as opposed to spending time and energy doubting the motives of each other, and arguing about the past. I have no doubt that some crazy things occurred years ago and as I‘m a relative newcomer to the scene, I have no personal knowledge. No one can erase that past but none of us have to be prisoner to it.

Several years ago I commented to a friend that I feared my grandchildren would see in their lifetime the total collapse of the Central and South America ecosystems and the loss of dart frogs and many other wonderful things. Today, I believe that my children ( the youngest are eight years old - my twins girls ) may live to see that day. That is a sobering and terrifying thought.

We can not and we must not let that happen.

Best regards,

Bill
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#8

"And what happened then...?
Well...in Who-ville they say
That the Grinch's small heart
Grew three sizes that day!
And the minute his heart didn't feel quite so tight,
He whizzed with his load through the bright morning light
And he brought back the toys! And the food for the feast!"

Just a joke, please don't read anything into it :-)
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#9

I've something for YOU Robb just as soon as I am done with my roast Beast. :twisted:

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.


If tone is more important to you than content, you are at the wrong place.

My new email address is: rich.frye@icloud.com and new phone number is 773 577 3476
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