Can we recommend 10 gallon tanks AT ALL ?

[RichFrye]

Do you use feeding stations Jason?

Rich

[JJuchems]

Nope, toss flies in so they scatter. When adding springtails over fill charcoal cultures with water and run a line of water to disperse them.

[RichFrye]

Nope, toss flies in so they scatter. When adding springtails over fill charcoal cultures with water and run a line of water to disperse them.

Good, I think feeding stations are usually not a good idea. Not a natural thing to feed at a station.
What are you using for lighting? BJs can take awhile to not only settle in , but become bold. I know you have not had those BJs for much more than 1/2 year?
I understand cramped space, but again our point is that we need to expound more of what is best (we can take a poll if we need on 'what's best' 10's or twenties...) and not an extreme example or extreme examples of what can be done. How many newbies have read past Ed saying a 20 can be set up as bad as a 10 or worse? Yup and a monkey building a 20 will have just as much luck with a ten...all things equal.

Rich

[JJuchems]

Sorry, weather knocked me off.

I have never been a fan of feed stations, working in a zoo I see feeding as part of "enrichment" for captive herps.

I just took this picture for you Rich, excuse to use my new phone. I use two 13w coil CFL in the Exo Terra fixture. The tank has not moved from my dinning room table since I got them (it needs to move before my wife kills me.)


The reason I posted, from what I have read it seems the conversation has gone more towards they should not be used for adult/breeding and I know successful hobbyist who do anf have been for years.

[RichFrye]

Jason,
If you have read through my threads revolving much around lighting and our plants' needs vs. our darts' needs, you have read that it is my contention (and a few other long term obligate breeders) that many use too much light and by cutting light in half or almost to nothing you will find activity much increased. If I were only seeing any obligate I have worked with only using a small portion of a tank I would start by drastically lowering light and see if this results in more natural activity. It's worked countless times for me in the past.
You are usiing about 2.5- 3 times the amount of light I generally use for my breeding obligate vivs, BTW.
That said, yes, tons of pums have been bred in 10's . Ten's being pretty much the bare, basic, smallest , minimalistic sized ever used. Not optimum by any experienced breeder's yardstick. Yourself included, as you have written.

Rich

[Philsuma]

Remember this thread is for "What we recommend to New Hobbyists"....

We all have smaller tanks and 10's .We use them for various things - grow-outs, temps, "rescue" tanks.

We have just GOT to stop arguing for argument's sake - it's confusing the fuk out of the newbies. When they read "EdSpeak" -IF...IF...they are able to even stay with it and understand most of it, they probably only come away with:

..(insert odd Charlie Brown teacher speaking noise)...20 gallon.....can be bad.......20 gallon can be worse than 10 gallon.......10 gallon can be fine.......

Trying to portray an academic argument is fine in some instances but not here. We are discussing a basic, oversimplified beginner topic. Leave it at that ! We don't need to bring in scientific experts to weigh in on a simple 10 gallon vs 20 gallon fishy tank sitting side by side at the local Petco sale. For God's sake, just tell them to buy the 20 gallon and let's not have a 30 page thread on WHY there may be a dozen reasons, or things that could potentially go wrong.

[RichFrye]

Phil, you assume not everyone has days on end and countless quality net hours to waste (insert emoticon of a small circle slamming away in the Thunder Dome).
I prefer actually working with darts than arguing over the absurdity of 10 vs. 20. There is no argument, only silly , ego driven, 11 page bitch fests where most 'new input' starts by saying "I've not read through this whole mess..."

Some people , more than usual, have WAY too much time on their hands.

[Philsuma]

I think that current mixing thread over "there" is in the general viewing area - able to be viewed by all newbs.

The thing the most people don't get, is that this stuff gets archived here - forever. These words, opinions ect have even more staying power and influence than a book. The interweb is a much stronger repository than a book - far easier to access.

Anyway....you are right about time spent ect. I'm proud of this forum and I take great pride in it's content and the ability it has to influence and assist new users. I just don't want to see unnecessarily confusing stuff over here, that's all.

and now....like you, Rich....I've got to descend into my basement frog room and maintain @ 25 Vivs and "lots" of actual, real live dart frogs that are producing, on average, 100-150 froglets from a number of different species, a year.

[JJuchems]

Not to toot my own horn or at shameless self-promotion, this is why I tell new people to buy a book and why I ended up writing a book. Phil you have a copy of my book, I have spelled out (I believe) a pretty clear path for newbies. 20g for adults, 10 for young froglet grow out tanks, and step-by-step how-to directions for a simple terrarium set-up. The problem with the internet, including forums, you get pages of useless information/rants/garbage to sort through from person on going arguments to rants on religion. Newbies don't need half the crap that is posted, they need meat and potatoes to get started and established.

Between emails and speaking to groups the same questions arise and will always arise. My book is a hybrid of quick care guided I started on and a undergrad project. Answering many of the questions I get asked.

[Michael Lawrence]

I understand the need for a cleaner board, and enough of the mixing threads and all the others but if our side isn't said when it comes up you will have those guys teaching this stuff to new hobbyists further continuing the issue. I don't really like the idea of our side going unheard because we decide to stay out of it because it will not help. I blame the use of racks for the fight to advance to larger vivs. Most only worry about how many vivs they can cram in as well as how many frogs will fit in them. The last years have resulted in the hobby being looked at as more of a collaboration of small business's. Most don't realize that larger vivs can and will promote more breeding and allow for more inviv raising. Has anyone ever seen thumbs raising 5,6,7 or so tads at once in a ten? because they do in larger vivs. Ive heard talk before on the idea that they can and will shut down breeding under threat of overpopulation. seems that if it has happened the vivs are obviously too small.

Michael

[Tony]

I don't really like the idea of our side going unheard because we decide to stay out of it because it will not help.

It's not that we decide so much as the fact that any post even vaguely contradicting His Holiness is destined to become a mess of trolling and moderation. The battle was lost before it even began just because of one person who needed to stroke his ego by proving a technicality. However unscientific it may be I still maintain that we should aim for something higher than the bare minimum from 20 years ago.

[RichFrye]

I don't really like the idea of our side going unheard because we decide to stay out of it because it will not help.

It's not that we decide so much as the fact that any post even vaguely contradicting His Holiness is destined to become a mess of trolling and moderation. The battle was lost before it even began just because of one person who needed to stroke his ego by proving a technicality.


However unscientific it may be I still maintain that we should aim for something higher than the bare minimum from 20 years ago.

...and that "technicality" was that an experienced frogger can build a 10 gallon viv better than an ape can build a 20. Bravo!
11 pages of chimp vs. man and Ed agreeing amoungst the leaf litter that he likes big vivs also. Good time management. Double bravo!


Prove it Tony!

[Tony]

Prove it Tony!

I'll start scouring the journals... :mrgreen:

[Azurel]

If all we did was follow the "Institutions and Zoos" there would be no advancements made in this hobby or others. That is the great thing about hobbies we don't have to follow regulations or institutional standards.

I like finding and reading research papers but in the end it is only a piece of information, and not the whole possible story. I am sure there are some in this hobby that went against what research papers, institutions, zoos have done and found that it actually advanced knowledge, care, and health in the end. Why hamstring yourself and your ability to find on hand knowledge and learning with only going by what research "scientist" and zoos tell you/us?

I really like this post as well

This gets back to my original position that people who are recommending larger enclosures have to own the responsibility to get newer people the information on how to set up an enclosure correctly. Just telling someone that x tank is insufficient because it is too small isn't an accurate statement much less a helpful method to pass along the information.

So if you are a proponate of "go larger" you have to own it and take responsabilty, bla,bla,bla.
But you say that "10gs" are "OK" then you don't? Kinda backwards isn't it?

I do appreciate the info Ed provides and the links, but he and those that are OK with telling new hobbyest that a 10g is a "good to go" have lost me on this issue.

[RichFrye]

Yes Jim, from the guys who brought you;
" We need to mix tons of species together in one viv...to keep our doors open."
I'm not looking for breeding nor husbandry 'standards'...


And I feel this comment by Ed sums it up really. And says a lot about some people's goals in our hobby. If they are in fact even in our hobby.



" So we have a decades of history of tens being sufficient to meet minimal needs of the frogs at what point does the size enclosure become overly redundent ."



hock: At what point you can both actually prove that tens are at least meeting all bare minimum requirements (which I don't believe to be true , for a number of reasons) and also prove that any size larger than a ten is in any way a detriment to the frogs, all things equal?

This is a doosie, actually kind of fun while being sad at the same time.


Rich

[RichFrye]

You see "minimal" and simply "sufficient " leave zero wiggle room for error. If all things are set up perfectly (who's perfect?) then you have at best a minimalistic , sufficient viv waiting for one variable to be insufficient. I tend to aim higher and I tell newbs to do so also.

[Azurel]

True....I threw my hat in that discussion over there and asked

" It seems like that would be even more important for those that are OK right off the bat for 10gs for new hobbyest to get that info for them as well right?

I mean it seems that the smaller the tank/viv the more important it is to build it correctly from the get go where as a larger viv there is a bit more wiggle room."

He/they simply over looked it as I figured.

[BcsTx]

I agree with all that has been posted here about 10 gallons not being big enough. For me they make great quarantine tanks, that is all I use them for.
Kudos Tony for your diligence in the thread "over there." Also, keep posting the pictures, totally hilarious!

[RichFrye]

Get me the shoe horn boys, there's room for one more!

[Philsuma]

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it "

Followed closely by....

"It's been the Industry standard for years"